ITR Rally Car Build (pics)
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From: Motor City, MI, USA
ITR Rally Car Build (pics)
Didn't really want to post build pics. till I was sure this was going to be a good rally car.... It is! I can't believe it's going to be the 07' season in two short months, Snodrift! Next year Rally America will be broadcast on ESPN2, just announced!
Thanks to all the help from these forums, SI prop valve, etc.
Rally cars do not have to be pieces of junk that you through away. Yes they take a beating, but what race car doesn't? Anyway I hope there's more motivation to build Honda rally cars. I've seen a few new ones built this year, mostly in CANADA. They are pennies on the dollar compared to these Subaru's which seem to eat trans., engines, suspension parts for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.....
By the way it's not difficult to build a car like this. I did the entire thing myself and with friends, no sub-contractors, welding and paint included. Shopped around the globe for the best price on pieces, which pays big dividends. The FIA cage kit makes things very easy. It's going to be a fun next year, hopefully we will have the JRSC that we are planning.
Enough rambling here's some shots of the car:
Thanks to all the help from these forums, SI prop valve, etc.
Rally cars do not have to be pieces of junk that you through away. Yes they take a beating, but what race car doesn't? Anyway I hope there's more motivation to build Honda rally cars. I've seen a few new ones built this year, mostly in CANADA. They are pennies on the dollar compared to these Subaru's which seem to eat trans., engines, suspension parts for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.....
By the way it's not difficult to build a car like this. I did the entire thing myself and with friends, no sub-contractors, welding and paint included. Shopped around the globe for the best price on pieces, which pays big dividends. The FIA cage kit makes things very easy. It's going to be a fun next year, hopefully we will have the JRSC that we are planning.
Enough rambling here's some shots of the car:
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From: Centreville ,VA, USA
Re: ITR Rally Car Build (canuckr)
great. i post pics of my ugly beater rally car, and you gotta come along and post this...
looks great man. wish mine looked 1/4 as good. haha! good luck. i'll be following your trails closely.
looks great man. wish mine looked 1/4 as good. haha! good luck. i'll be following your trails closely.
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From: at the track
Re: ITR Rally Car Build (vtecvoodoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doesn't look like you have much travel left in the front. How heavy are those springs?
Car looks great
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i noticed the same. . .whats up with that?
Car looks great
</TD></TR></TABLE>i noticed the same. . .whats up with that?
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Re: ITR Rally Car Build (vtecvoodoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doesn't look like you have much travel left in the front. How heavy are those springs?
Car looks great </TD></TR></TABLE>
Your right, good eye, at that ride ht. there's only about 1" before jounce bumper, and the jounce bumper is 1.7" long, so that's 2.7" to metal. However, in full compression, the tire (15" gravel tire which is about the same dia. as the 17" in teh pics.) just kisses the frame rail, so it's not like a shorter shock body would get me anywhere, notice I could move the shock body down a bit, but not much or it will hit the axle.... I destroyed the jounce bumpers by mid season, replaced them, but probobly should cut them down a bit. Front springs are 600lb/in. x 9" with helper springs. I could add some compression damping, but it's hooking up very well and flies/lands well too.
So what do you guys think about the arms, and the shock mounts? Diffferent, eh? I'm proud of those parts now, the first gen. of the arms did'nt work out so well....broke in half (tried to use a circle track arm, 0.072"wall not good). I spent time getting the seating right also, it think the seats are mounted tough and as safe as I could get them.
Car looks great
</TD></TR></TABLE>Your right, good eye, at that ride ht. there's only about 1" before jounce bumper, and the jounce bumper is 1.7" long, so that's 2.7" to metal. However, in full compression, the tire (15" gravel tire which is about the same dia. as the 17" in teh pics.) just kisses the frame rail, so it's not like a shorter shock body would get me anywhere, notice I could move the shock body down a bit, but not much or it will hit the axle.... I destroyed the jounce bumpers by mid season, replaced them, but probobly should cut them down a bit. Front springs are 600lb/in. x 9" with helper springs. I could add some compression damping, but it's hooking up very well and flies/lands well too.
So what do you guys think about the arms, and the shock mounts? Diffferent, eh? I'm proud of those parts now, the first gen. of the arms did'nt work out so well....broke in half (tried to use a circle track arm, 0.072"wall not good). I spent time getting the seating right also, it think the seats are mounted tough and as safe as I could get them.
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From: Orange County, CA
Re: ITR Rally Car Build (rota92)
Evan:
I am curious how you feel about the appropriateness of the B18C for rally use. Always seemed to me that an engine with better low end torque like a non-VTEC B18 or B20 would better suited for rally. Are you able to keep it in VTEC as often as you like? Any problems exiting hairpins or whatnot when you feel like you're just waiting for the revs to get into the usable range?
I am curious how you feel about the appropriateness of the B18C for rally use. Always seemed to me that an engine with better low end torque like a non-VTEC B18 or B20 would better suited for rally. Are you able to keep it in VTEC as often as you like? Any problems exiting hairpins or whatnot when you feel like you're just waiting for the revs to get into the usable range?
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Re: ITR Rally Car Build (essex)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by essex »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Looks really nice 
post pics of the control arms ...hows is the heim joint mounted to the end?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've got pics. before painting that show better. The Heims are FK nylon lined 3/4" rod ends. The tube is a 1.25x0.120"wall with welded thread tube inserts. Then it's boxed with 0.250" steel waterjet cut pieces and TIG'd together. They are not light, about 5lbs each with the rod ends and inserts. I made the inserts from some chrome shafts, that took about 4 hours on the lathe.
Here's a shot of Gen 1, circle track swaged steel trailing arm 1"x 0.072" wall and then 0.250" steel plates, not enough meat to be loaded like this. My bad, at least I did'nt die when she let go.....
post pics of the control arms ...hows is the heim joint mounted to the end?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've got pics. before painting that show better. The Heims are FK nylon lined 3/4" rod ends. The tube is a 1.25x0.120"wall with welded thread tube inserts. Then it's boxed with 0.250" steel waterjet cut pieces and TIG'd together. They are not light, about 5lbs each with the rod ends and inserts. I made the inserts from some chrome shafts, that took about 4 hours on the lathe.
Here's a shot of Gen 1, circle track swaged steel trailing arm 1"x 0.072" wall and then 0.250" steel plates, not enough meat to be loaded like this. My bad, at least I did'nt die when she let go.....
Last edited by rallybird; Mar 8, 2010 at 12:24 PM.
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From: Charleston, SC, USA
Re: ITR Rally Car Build (rallybird)
holy LCA's.. NICE!
is it just me or does the car seem to be a bit low? wouldn't you want a bit more ground clearance or am I just rally-retarded?
is it just me or does the car seem to be a bit low? wouldn't you want a bit more ground clearance or am I just rally-retarded?
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Re: ITR Rally Car Build (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Evan:
I am curious how you feel about the appropriateness of the B18C for rally use. Always seemed to me that an engine with better low end torque like a non-VTEC B18 or B20 would better suited for rally. Are you able to keep it in VTEC as often as you like? Any problems exiting hairpins or whatnot when you feel like you're just waiting for the revs to get into the usable range?</TD></TR></TABLE>
As is, it's pretty gutless out of VTEC. At LSPR, I realized that I probobly want a 4.9 or even higher final drive to keep in VTEC more often. I looked at doing up an NA motor, probobly the B18C5 it has, but the $$ was crazy for little gain. So I decided on the JRSC. There is a class for this in North America, but not in the rest of the world. It gets me closer to my goal of having a very fast LIGHT 2WD car. So if the plan goes, it's a JRSC + race gas + Kamikaze 2.5" into Kteller 2.5" + muffler + metalcat. I'm hoping this will be enought to keep up with SRT4.
I am curious how you feel about the appropriateness of the B18C for rally use. Always seemed to me that an engine with better low end torque like a non-VTEC B18 or B20 would better suited for rally. Are you able to keep it in VTEC as often as you like? Any problems exiting hairpins or whatnot when you feel like you're just waiting for the revs to get into the usable range?</TD></TR></TABLE>
As is, it's pretty gutless out of VTEC. At LSPR, I realized that I probobly want a 4.9 or even higher final drive to keep in VTEC more often. I looked at doing up an NA motor, probobly the B18C5 it has, but the $$ was crazy for little gain. So I decided on the JRSC. There is a class for this in North America, but not in the rest of the world. It gets me closer to my goal of having a very fast LIGHT 2WD car. So if the plan goes, it's a JRSC + race gas + Kamikaze 2.5" into Kteller 2.5" + muffler + metalcat. I'm hoping this will be enought to keep up with SRT4.
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From: Renton, WA
Re: ITR Rally Car Build (Willard)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Willard »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do the rear brakes get that hot (to remove the splash shields)?
or do rocks/hand brake use cause issues?</TD></TR></TABLE>
For us its about rocks and ease of working on stuff. Also sometimes need to remove the dust shields to be able to mount a wheel speed sensor for the rally computer.
Rear brakes don't really get all that hot.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Evan:
I am curious how you feel about the appropriateness of the B18C for rally use. Always seemed to me that an engine with better low end torque like a non-VTEC B18 or B20 would better suited for rally. Are you able to keep it in VTEC as often as you like? Any problems exiting hairpins or whatnot when you feel like you're just waiting for the revs to get into the usable range?</TD></TR></TABLE>
B18Bs are more common for EG rally cars, although I run a B18C1 in my Integra. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be a problem... We do have a bit of a hard time in that we spend some time in the 4000rpm range where VTEC isn't kicking in (up hills usually). Then it is a battle between downshifting and just waiting. I find that downshifting is usually better way to go. Downshifting while racing up a hill is kinda an experience that one only gets in rally.
Hills are definitely where I'd like some more torque--where there is traction but the motor just doesn't have enough 'umph'.
We did have a problem where even with the skidplate, the oil pain got dented and just barely prevented the oil pressure from being high enough for VTEC to function. Ran the rally without VTEC. Was an eye-opening experience. Realized just how powerful the car was, and had to focus on maintaining momentum. Am a better driver for the experience.
That being said, my new EF rally car will be LS-VTEC with CTR pistons and cams. Hoping to go with a 4.9 or 5.1+ FD. Should haul bawls due to it being lightweight.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mstewar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
is it just me or does the car seem to be a bit low? wouldn't you want a bit more ground clearance or am I just rally-retarded? </TD></TR></TABLE>
You don't want the car any higher than you need it to be. I think that on the Michigan roads and at Sno-Drift, etc. don't need as much height.
Frankly, we're actually pretty limited on the Integras due to the geometry. I want to say total shock LO/travel on ours is like 173mm, but really the total suspension travel is less. If we converted to struts like all the big-time rally cars probably could get more height and travel.
We're able to run ours a bit higher than Evan, but not by much. I think the roads in the northwest dictate a slightly higher ride height... if we racing a lot in California, we may have to spend a lot more time figuring out higher ride heights.
or do rocks/hand brake use cause issues?</TD></TR></TABLE>
For us its about rocks and ease of working on stuff. Also sometimes need to remove the dust shields to be able to mount a wheel speed sensor for the rally computer.
Rear brakes don't really get all that hot.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Evan:
I am curious how you feel about the appropriateness of the B18C for rally use. Always seemed to me that an engine with better low end torque like a non-VTEC B18 or B20 would better suited for rally. Are you able to keep it in VTEC as often as you like? Any problems exiting hairpins or whatnot when you feel like you're just waiting for the revs to get into the usable range?</TD></TR></TABLE>
B18Bs are more common for EG rally cars, although I run a B18C1 in my Integra. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be a problem... We do have a bit of a hard time in that we spend some time in the 4000rpm range where VTEC isn't kicking in (up hills usually). Then it is a battle between downshifting and just waiting. I find that downshifting is usually better way to go. Downshifting while racing up a hill is kinda an experience that one only gets in rally.
Hills are definitely where I'd like some more torque--where there is traction but the motor just doesn't have enough 'umph'.
We did have a problem where even with the skidplate, the oil pain got dented and just barely prevented the oil pressure from being high enough for VTEC to function. Ran the rally without VTEC. Was an eye-opening experience. Realized just how powerful the car was, and had to focus on maintaining momentum. Am a better driver for the experience.
That being said, my new EF rally car will be LS-VTEC with CTR pistons and cams. Hoping to go with a 4.9 or 5.1+ FD. Should haul bawls due to it being lightweight.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mstewar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
is it just me or does the car seem to be a bit low? wouldn't you want a bit more ground clearance or am I just rally-retarded? </TD></TR></TABLE>
You don't want the car any higher than you need it to be. I think that on the Michigan roads and at Sno-Drift, etc. don't need as much height.
Frankly, we're actually pretty limited on the Integras due to the geometry. I want to say total shock LO/travel on ours is like 173mm, but really the total suspension travel is less. If we converted to struts like all the big-time rally cars probably could get more height and travel.
We're able to run ours a bit higher than Evan, but not by much. I think the roads in the northwest dictate a slightly higher ride height... if we racing a lot in California, we may have to spend a lot more time figuring out higher ride heights.
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Re: ITR Rally Car Build (rotten)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rotten »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That being said, my new EF rally car will be LS-VTEC with CTR pistons and cams. Hoping to go with a 4.9 or 5.1+ FD. Should haul bawls due to it being lightweight.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would advise against this. 14:1 (13.96 PR3 head/14.38 P72 head) compression and stock cast pistons aren't going to get along for long. I would either run a P30 or P73-00. I am assuming you are restricted to OEM parts only?
I would advise against this. 14:1 (13.96 PR3 head/14.38 P72 head) compression and stock cast pistons aren't going to get along for long. I would either run a P30 or P73-00. I am assuming you are restricted to OEM parts only?
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From: Renton, WA
Re: ITR Rally Car Build (Mr Hammond)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Hammond »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I would advise against this. 14:1 (13.96 PR3 head/14.38 P72 head) compression and stock cast pistons aren't going to get along for long. I would either run a P30 or P73-00. I am assuming you are restricted to OEM parts only?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well we can do whatever we want, but I wanted the car to be legal for Honda Challenge H1 and USTCC as well if possible (otherwise would go with ITBs, etc).
I think a PCT piston in a B18B with a B16A head (pr3) is only like 12:1.
I would advise against this. 14:1 (13.96 PR3 head/14.38 P72 head) compression and stock cast pistons aren't going to get along for long. I would either run a P30 or P73-00. I am assuming you are restricted to OEM parts only?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well we can do whatever we want, but I wanted the car to be legal for Honda Challenge H1 and USTCC as well if possible (otherwise would go with ITBs, etc).
I think a PCT piston in a B18B with a B16A head (pr3) is only like 12:1.
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Re: ITR Rally Car Build (rotten)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rotten »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think a PCT piston in a B18B with a B16A head (pr3) is only like 12:1.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You think. I know. Take your choice.
B18B block = 211.84mm deck height
B18B crank = 89mm
B18B rod = 137mm
PR3 head = 42.70cc combustion chambers
Standard PCT pistons = 81mm bore w/ 8.63cc dome and 30.73mm compression height
OEM head gasket = 0.026"
Assuming no decking to the block, no milling of the head, no flat faced valves etc....
Your static compression will be 13.96:1
Hey, it's your money though right? Me though, I wanted a little bit more assurance then "I think it's only like". I was planning the same build as you. I decided to go with a B18C1 short block w/ PCT's and a PR3 head (so I can use an ITR manifold and stay H1 legal, other wise I like the P72 head better). Compression is 12.74:1.
You think. I know. Take your choice.
B18B block = 211.84mm deck height
B18B crank = 89mm
B18B rod = 137mm
PR3 head = 42.70cc combustion chambers
Standard PCT pistons = 81mm bore w/ 8.63cc dome and 30.73mm compression height
OEM head gasket = 0.026"
Assuming no decking to the block, no milling of the head, no flat faced valves etc....
Your static compression will be 13.96:1
Hey, it's your money though right? Me though, I wanted a little bit more assurance then "I think it's only like". I was planning the same build as you. I decided to go with a B18C1 short block w/ PCT's and a PR3 head (so I can use an ITR manifold and stay H1 legal, other wise I like the P72 head better). Compression is 12.74:1.