im looking into getting an s2000 after winter my only concern is the insurance if thats decent then i will be getting one.

so my question is ive been doing some researching and it seems like all motor f20 is hard to get good numbers out of i would like to stay all motor but if boost is a much better route then thats what ill most likely do. im looking for opinions and all ready done all motor set-up's as well as boost app's it wouldnt bother me to redo the bottom end for good n/a results so throw in all options bolt on's,rebuild, and boosting.

sidenote: f20 and f22 pro's con's which is better motor

 

well...The F20 vs F22 question is probably heated, but im going to go ahead and say F20 FTW. I own an AP1 (F20) because of my dis-satisfaction of an AP2 (F22) test drive. There's really nothing like 9000 rpm...i dont care if 8200 is close but my stock B16A revved a tick above that. F20s are also silky smooth compared to the F22 due to the reduced stroke. The reason the F22 was brought around was because of the driveability and torque "issues" of the F20. I havent really had any problems with driveability or torque...but you cant really step out of a camaro and feel right at home or anything (however, the F22 doesnt deliver that either). The F20 also makes 3 more HP stock. Not that its much, but if we're splitting hairs, it matters. The reason i dislike the F22 the most is because it is attached to the AP2. SERIOUSLY!! drive an AP1 (00-03) and then drive an AP2 (04-current). The AP2 feels like a freaking bus. Slower steering response, a bigger, less attractive steering wheel, softer suspension, and less handling prowess. Basically, Honda messed with a perfect engine and chassis combo and the AP2 ended up sucking (IMO).

This doesnt really answer your question about power though lol. I dont really know which engine would make more power. People always say there's no replacement for displacement. I didnt really care about power. Any stock S2K feels like a dog compared to my SR20'd 240...but the S2K is so much more sophisticated, and i love turning heads lol. Anyway...to make any kind of big power, you're going to need to go Forced Induction. But before you buy the car, remember that the engine comes with the whole package. DRIVE BOTH CARS BEFORE YOU MAKE THE DECISION!! The AP1 was definitely the way to go for me...but i guess its not for everyone.

Oh yeah..Im 21 and i believe i still have 1 accident on record...i pay $100 a month (rounded off) for my AP1 and my 00 galant fully covered. I'm not sure of what arrangement the agent has to get me this rate (I.E if im the primary driver of which car, etc) but I'm not complaining. I live in IL and my insurance company is Allstate. My friend (also 21 with allstate...definatley on his own) pays about the same for his AP1 and a shelby daytona Z (turbo) but he's at $118 a month since he has that new car replacement deal. Your insurance agent should be able to give you a quote.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well...The F20 vs F22 question is probably heated, but im going to go ahead and say F20 FTW. I own an AP1 (F20) because of my dis-satisfaction of an AP2 (F22) test drive. There's really nothing like 9000 rpm...i dont care if 8200 is close but my stock B16A revved a tick above that. F20s are also silky smooth compared to the F22 due to the reduced stroke. The reason the F22 was brought around was because of the driveability and torque "issues" of the F20. I havent really had any problems with driveability or torque...but you cant really step out of a camaro and feel right at home or anything (however, the F22 doesnt deliver that either). The F20 also makes 3 more HP stock. Not that its much, but if we're splitting hairs, it matters. The reason i dislike the F22 the most is because it is attached to the AP2. SERIOUSLY!! drive an AP1 (00-03) and then drive an AP2 (04-current). The AP2 feels like a freaking bus. Slower steering response, a bigger, less attractive steering wheel, softer suspension, and less handling prowess. Basically, Honda messed with a perfect engine and chassis combo and the AP2 ended up sucking (IMO).

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eh, I had ap1. I dont miss it one bit.

Once you mod the car it really doesn't matter if you have ap1 or ap2. As long as you do the right mods, both cars respond the same. If anything the ap2 is going to gain more power in the mid unlike the ap1.

 

O B Serious!

 

From your previous remarks you have told me that you know NOTHING about these cars, to the OP do not listen to this guy....

Having driven both cars extensively (more than a freakin test drive) I can tell you that the F22 is even more silky smooth than F20, I think due to the fact that there isn't a dip in power before the vtec cross-over. "Perfect engine" for the S2000 (2800 lb car) would not be a motor that makes no torque, and although the bump in torque isn't that exaggerated in the F22 from the F20, it is much nicer in the midrange which makes the car alot nicer to drive. You were right about one thing though, FI is the way to go if you want LOTS of power, although stroker kits are becoming more and more popular....

The suspension geometery was changed for the AP2 to mostly eliminate the snap-oversteer problem that totalled many an unexperienced driver's S2k. Now softer suspension that makes the car easier to drive fast or a car that always feels on the ragged edge at speed?...I'll take the easier to drive car, lets you worry about other things instead of keeping the car on the road.... Mind you this all changes with modification.....

Now looks are all personal opinion but I haven't seen one AP2 with the AP1 front end or rear bumper and lights, but I have seen dozens of AP1's with AP2 front ends, etc.... I think that tells you something.... Although I like both ALOT, I prefer the AP2 looks

The deciding factor for me between the AP1 or AP2 towards the AP2 was the freakin clock on the cluster... as I could care less which one would be faster on track or be easier to drive...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SERIOUSLY!! drive an AP1 (00-03) and then drive an AP2 (04-current). The AP2 feels like a freaking bus. Slower steering response, a bigger, less attractive steering wheel, softer suspension, and less handling prowess. Basically, Honda messed with a perfect engine and chassis combo and the AP2 ended up sucking (IMO). </TD></TR></TABLE>

To clarify a few things. Honda changed the suspension beginning with the 02 (AP1) model, and the reason has already been mentioned. Yeah, it's a little softer but it's far from luxury car soft, and the sharp and tight handling is still there without a doubt. The car can be driven faster at the limit (track) by a less experienced driver. And it won't get you in trouble in street driving without you doing something really stupid.

The HP rating for the 2004/2005 AP2 was 240 HP. The reason it changed to 237 HP in 2006 is because around late 2005 the industry standard rating system to measure HP changed. Many car manufacturers had to change their HP figures based on the new rating system. Why do you think the Civic SI is rated at 197 HP? Honda was shooting for an even 200 with the previous rating system, but since the rating system changed, they had to bring it down to 197.

Besides the 2.2 liter "smooth" engine, The AP2 also has better gear ratios than the AP1 that help put the power down more efficiently. As an analogy, think of it as the difference between the GSR and the ITR transmissions, if you are familiar with those.

I have a 2006 and I think it's one of the best steering wheels I've used. For me, the size is just right.

 

Gears are the best bang for the buck if you want to stay NA. Not a lot you can do to the engine to get decent gains without FI. Early cars do respond well to tuned AF controller (stand alone EMS or piggyback VAFC/eManage... piggyback is more cost effective per hp). Everything else is small gain for large $ (intake, header, test pipe, exhaust).

I've driven both AP1 & AP2. Stock, the AP1 handling does feel more crisp. A few mods to the AP2 can make it feel as crisp as an AP1 (decent coilover...KW V3 is a good choice). AP2's clutch delay plain sucks...but luckily it is not too hard to remove.

AP1 is more twitchy especially on rough surfaces. A bump steer kit fixes the problem. AP1 is hampered by limited performance tire sizes/selection unless you step up to a 17" wheel.

I've autoxed both AP1 & AP2. AP1 mods were I/H/TP/E, tuned VAFC, Hondata IMG, bump steer kit, front sway bar, Koni + Espilar running 2 deg front & 3 deg rear -camber, Hankook RS2 225/16 fr & 245/16 rear, Carbotech Bobcat pads. AP2 mods I/H/TP/E, Hondata IMG, clutch delay removed, front swaybar, corner balanced KW V3 running 1.7 deg front & 2.7 deg rear -camber, Bridgestone S03 225/17 fr & 255/17 rear, Hawk Blue pads. Both felt very similar other than differences due to KWs stiffer compression rates, and tire type/size. I never noticed a difference in torque nor did I miss the extra 1000rpm.

 

good responses so far, i guess cost effective way would be to go with f/i and it seems like the opinions for ap1 to ap2 are somewhat mixed. also said that the ap2 trans was better im geussing because of closer ratio's but wouldnt farther ratio's be better for boost making the ap1 better. stock for stock the cars are slightly different and i beleive the 1/4 times are not too far apart but if your going with aftermarket parts it seems like ap1 would be a tad bit better platform to start with also it would be cheaper to because of the newer ap2. oh and by the way hows the lsd on these cars

also could the better midrange for the f22 be confused with the better trans because closer gears would make it feel like it had more torque.

keep it coming.


Modified by crawlin at 4:24 PM 11/18/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by crawlin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> oh and by the way hows the lsd on these cars</TD></TR></TABLE>
Weak...AP2 has a slightly stronger diff, but neither are ideal for the power of FI. Comptech offers a reinforced diff...personally, I would not go FI without a stronger diff. Axles are the next weak point in the train...The Driveshaft Shop makes an excellent set that is also better for lowered cars.

If you go FI you need to be able to fit more rubber to the rear to really make use of the power off the line. Although stock class AP2 autoxers will run 275s on the oem rim, it probably would be better to step up to a wider wheel. Wheels with the right offset are not easy to find. Volk CE28n are a good choice for a larger tire in the rear.

 

Just an FYI, if you really want answers to your questions, there have been extensive discussions about FI and NA pros and cons on s2ki.com. Do a search and you'll get plenty of useful info. There is even a forum specific to FI.