I have completely stock head and bottom end, i'm considering getting ITB's

anyone out there have ITB's on there stock engine? and there experiences?

 

You will make more power, and spend less money, by using a ported ITR IM like the Import Builders unit.

In terms of maximum power production and area under the curve, there is more potential with an IM versus ITB's. ITB's are great for throttle response.

 

I would think the ITBs would make a more HP gain?...Am i wrong?

 

ooh, 8400-RPM......my first name on H-T back in 2001........haha

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civic6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would think the ITBs would make a more HP gain?...Am i wrong? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Over a stock manifold yes. But a modified IM like the IB will make more area under the curve.

 

Oh i C becareful ad filter your itbs they will fk up your motor if u dont filter them..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civic6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would think the ITBs would make a more HP gain?...Am i wrong? </TD></TR></TABLE>

ITB's all depend on the tune. Your not going to gain massive amounts of power, but with a good tune and some head work you will have a nice setup.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Over a stock manifold yes. But a modified IM like the IB will make more area under the curve.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well its kinda all dependent on the car as well....if its a custom IM then yea you could make as much or more power than ITB's, but well tuned and/or custom modified ITB's can make more power than anything from what I've read while doing all of my research.

However, dont wanna start a argument. I think we all can agree it would be much more cost effective to get the Import Builders manifold for $550 and make maybe 3-5whp less than ITB's than getting $2500 ITB's for a car that is apparently 100% stock...

Two of the ONLY benefits to getting ITB's is the throttle response, and sound....haha

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by totsie7944 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Two of the ONLY benefits to getting ITB's is the throttle response, and sound....haha </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can't forget about the bling!

 

Brad, your old car is making similar power to totsie's on a dynojet, but he might have a few more lb/ft of tq.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bradstard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You can't forget about the bling!</TD></TR></TABLE>

haha true true!! they are some eye candy!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zygspeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brad, your old car is making similar power to totsie's on a dynojet, but he might have a few more lb/ft of tq.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sweet! go me lol...I thought he was making like 8 more whp than me...

 

I'm registering the car in Ohio as my Mom's this week.

Afterwards I'll be able to get some more tuning done on the AEM EMS instead of worrying about dealing with VA emissions.

Fresh suspension and tower bars on the way.
Looking forward to expo, and maybe a track day or two before then for some suspension tuning/getting used to the car on-track.

 

yea thats a good idea....

glad you got another R man. and a very well built one at that! it should be fun tracking with ya!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You will make more power, and spend less money, by using a ported ITR IM like the Import Builders unit.

In terms of maximum power production and area under the curve, there is more potential with an IM versus ITB's. ITB's are great for throttle response.</TD></TR></TABLE>

do you have actual "un-biased" data to prove this?

When we installed ITB's on my brothers semi-built B16 setup we actually maintained the same peak power however the mid-range power and torque gains were incredible.
Here is the dyno results with both a fully ported Comptech ITR manifold vs. Toda ITB setup

 

well i guess ive always looked at ITB's as the last thing you would do to your engine after cams, valve train, port & polish, bottom end etc.. then ITBs.. but thats just me!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spock_rocker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well i guess ive always looked at ITB's as the last thing you would do to your engine after cams, valve train, port & polish, bottom end etc.. then ITBs.. but thats just me! </TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree, however a full aftermarket port and polish doesn't make a huge difference on a ITR. We're talking 3-5hp gains max. When I dropped off my head with Tom at Portflow he actually tried to advise me against porting, stating that a factory ported ITR head flows the perfect amount of CC's per cylinder so any gains from porting are pretty minimal. He advised me that the porting will make a huge difference when you go either larger stroke and/or bore.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GUILOTINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a factory ported ITR head flows the perfect amount of CC's per cylinder so any gains from porting are pretty minimal. He advised me that the porting will make a huge difference when you go either larger stroke and/or bore.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just enlarging the ports usually doesn't amount to much, however a good valve job and recessed valve guides can do a bunch for an ITR, especially when you add cams. But in general yes, more displacement requires more airflow, so headwork is going to make more power on a 2.1L than an 1.8L.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GUILOTINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you have actual "un-biased" data to prove this? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Our dyno is for the most part "un-biased"... Dozens of B-series builds, we always recommend modified IM's. We're making 269whp with our 2.0L and 288 with our 2.1L methanol motor, both using modified VictorX mani's. We also have had an Endyn intake mani make more power everywhere versus some TWM 2000's. Hell, even Erik's Racing was using a modified GSR intake manifold, and they were the fastest N/A Honda for a couple years, until the K-series showed up.

The best setup cars with ITB's are always tuned with individual cylinder trim, an option most people do not opt for when tuning ITB's. We have done a few ITB'd B-series that have performed well, both were using PowerFC.

IF someone is insistant on going ITB's, their best option is Jenvey, where you can tune stack length and have a well transitioned manifold portion.

I have never seen what a Comptech IM looks like, but if it is anything like the Endyn or Import Builders, then those are impressive gains. TODA ITB's are ideal for higher comp 1.6's and mild 1.8's, they also have a great manifold portion that tansitions well on PR3 heads.

PS, TWM's are garbage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

PS, TWM's are garbage. </TD></TR></TABLE>

true that!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The best setup cars with ITB's are always tuned with individual cylinder trim, an option most people do not opt for when tuning ITB's. We have done a few ITB'd B-series that have performed well, both were using PowerFC.</TD></TR></TABLE>
is the PowerFc able to tune this way? Do you usually tune the ITB's with a MAP or by TPS?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IF someone is insistant on going ITB's, their best option is Jenvey, where you can tune stack length and have a well transitioned manifold portion. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Jenveys are nice, but so are A-Sports

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have never seen what a Comptech IM looks like, but if it is anything like the Endyn or Import Builders, then those are impressive gains. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It was fully ported all the way through the runners, the plenum was deburred, and the throttle opening was match ported to the OS ITR throttle body

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">TODA ITB's are ideal for higher comp 1.6's and mild 1.8's, they also have a great manifold portion that tansitions well on PR3 heads.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PS, TWM's are garbage. </TD></TR></TABLE>
HaHa, I thought everyone knew that

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GUILOTINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is the PowerFc able to tune this way? Do you usually tune the ITB's with a MAP or by TPS? </TD></TR></TABLE>

PowerFC cannot tune Alpha-N or partial MAP/TPS like Crome...However it does have individual fuel trim and a custom manifold pressure scale that makes tuning ITB's easy. Plus autotune works great for getting idle and partials.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GUILOTINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Jenveys are nice, but so are A-Sports
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was under the impression A-sport ITB's are AE86 46mm units with a custom manifold to bolt to PR3 heads? A far shout from Jenvey's, which offer multiple injector location options, 30+ stack combinations and spacers for valve-to-plate harmonic tuning and bore sizes available in .5mm incriments.

Moral of the story, making power is cheaper and easier using a modified plenum, not to mention can make more power in many situations than most off-the-shelf ITB's.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I was under the impression A-sport ITB's are AE86 46mm units with a custom manifold to bolt to PR3 heads? </TD></TR></TABLE>
They are tapered bored 48mm AE86 throttle bodies with a custom manifold and air horns , just like the Todas.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92TypeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Moral of the story, making power is cheaper and easier using a modified plenum, not to mention can make more power in many situations than most off-the-shelf ITB's.</TD></TR></TABLE>
However, it is very difficult to get the mid range power and torque gains that ITB's provide

 

Either of you ever run ITBs with a plenum?

This is how most cars with OEM ITBs are set up, and it seems like the best way to do it, as you could get cooler air from the fender well and won't have to worry about an unfiltered intake charge.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civic6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would think the ITBs would make a more HP gain?...Am i wrong? </TD></TR></TABLE>
doesnt everyone, individuals dont make as much power as everyone seems to think, they simply make the throttle response better by using equal length runners to provide the same amount of air flow in each port, causing positive response for each chamber.
not really alot of power being made off them ever.

 

Does Dickerson have any engine work with his ITB's? Just show?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. Furley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does Dickerson have any engine work with his ITB's? Just show?</TD></TR></TABLE>
skunk cams and valve train