Im in the process of planning an F22 build and Ive been doing some searching and have a few questions that I hope you all might be able to help me with. I would like to take an F22(not sure if I want the B1 or b2) but I am not sure what engine is better in terms of head flow or RS or other factors that may play in (anyone have a place that lists the pro-cons that I could research a bit?) . I have also read that you can swap out IMs from the H23, but they looked like they were dual runner, what stock IM flows the best for the F series head? I would really like to stay away from VTEC, its one less thing that you have do deal with. Also, with the F22 head, how high are people wrapping these things up to with the stock valvetrain and still making useable power? Ive been looking at some dyno charts and RPMs seem to vary quite a bit... Also, how high have people pushed these motors too hp and trq wise? I woud like to make 4-450wtq on a stock block which may sound crazy but the motors are cheap and plentiful so I figure why not give it a shot. Also, I plan on using a D series tranny conversion plate from Bismoto but is it a better Idea to stay with the F and H series trannies for gear ratios? The engine will be in a 92-95 coupe. What year did they change wiring to obd1 on accords?

I am still trying to decide what snail to go with and Ive only looked at dyno charts and havent gotten the chance to sit down and run some compressor maps yet. I really am looking for decent spool but dont want a drop off up top at all. I will be setting up a gear dependent boost controller and going all out on the suspension for maximum traction. (still lots or reseaching to do) If anyone has had good exprience with a particular snail and would think that it would suit my needs, please by all means share your exprience with it and Ill put it on my list of turbines to plot.

Any insight on these questions would be much appriciated. tia.

I aploagizeif these seem like newb questions, but I got tired of sifting through all the crap in the search that I found.

Blaze

 

do you intend on sleeving the block??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blaze45 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I woud like to make 4-450wtq on a stock block which may sound crazy but the motors are cheap and plentiful so I figure why not give it a shot. </TD></TR></TABLE>
400+ on stock bottom end? LMAO! Not going to happen.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blaze45 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What year did they change wiring to obd1 on accords? </TD></TR></TABLE>
for 5th gen (since you said f22bx) 1994 & 1995 are OBD1. 1996+ are OBD2.

 

If you plan on sleeving the block, or if anyone who comes in here is looking for a sleeve F22 block, shoot me a PM I have one I'm selling.

 

Like I said, Im planning on keeping it a stock block, even if it blows its not a big deal cause these motors are going for $50 bucks at the local scrap yard. I appriciate your help thus far tho... Still would like to know some answers to my other questions or places where I could find the info.

thx

Blaze

 

from what i've read, u'll never hit 450tq with a stock block. ive seen like 250, and that's pushing it. i heard the rings wont take much more than that.but ya, you wont last a couple weeks at even 300 tq

 

if you want a higher flowing head. your better off bolting a H22 or H23 head onto the F-block. H23A would be good because you said your trying to stay away from VTEC, and you'll still have dual cams.

and im a little bit lost on the tranny conversion plate. explain a little bit more please.

 

I guess if the rings are so weak then Ill just find out first hand. One Fab pushed thier stock H22 to 550whp for over 40 dyno pulls and many passes down the track. Just because you havent seen anyone past that much trq. doesnt mean it cant be done. Everyone freaked out when I boosted a B20B, which supposedly have weak sleeves but I never had an issue with my setup, ran 12s and DD it for over a year before the car was sold. I kind of like going against the grain and doing something different which is what I did with my last setup and plan on doing it with this setup. I hope I didnt come off as a jerk explaining myself because that was not my intention. Well that idea with the adapter plate was that I could do the swap cheaper then a B series and do something different. Bismoto offeres a F/H conversion plate to D series trannies. The plate isnt cheap but the cost of the tranny and motor and the ability to use the stock axles more then make up for it, plus I dont know too many people running this setup. Is the H23A head a direct swap and much better does it flow then the F22 head? Is there any other SOHC head that bolts up that flows better and has stiffer valve springs then the stock F22 and has better heat disapating capablities or that is constructed of a different material? Also does the H23A head have better valvesprings then the F22? Sorry for so many newb questions.

Thanks for everyones help so far.

 

The f heads flow pretty good from what i hear.
if i was going for the max hp/tq i would stack head gaskets (maybe a 5 or 6 layer
oem gasket. also you want a big turbo gt35r and a very good fueling system (1000cc injectors and hondata/crome etc...
weld around the intake manifold and over bore it to 65mm and have fun with 25 psi. at least till it blows up


Modified by alterdcreations at 2:14 PM 11/15/2006

 

dont use the d tranny unless you plan on reving the engine really hard.
i would use a h22 /type-s/95 accord ex tranny. m factory has a 4.6 final drive

 

as far as head flow goes, go with an f22a.

 

Why do I need to weld the IM? I have herd of people taking part of the H23 IM and the F22 IM and putting them togeathor. (do they bolt togeathor or do you weld them) Why is this? BTW, do you guys just wire the secondary butterflies to stay open in the IMs or what? Also, why would I stack so many gaskets? I dont really want to go much below the stock compression #s that badly. Im still working on what the dynamic compression is going to running at, so I guess that would influence if I swapped heads and had a higher CR and the need for race gas. I dont think that Ill need 1000cc inejctors, but Im still working out BSFC #s, after I figure that out, as well as what pump Im going to use and what pressure Im going to run at then Ill know for sure. Is the F22a a non VTEC head? What If so, whats its rev limit and is it DOHC? What is it constructed of? If I were to decide to run the 96 accord tranny, can I run the accord axles as well and have them fit a 92-95 civic coupe without any mix and matching with inner and outer knucles/hubs?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if i was going for the max hp/tq i would stach head gaskets (maybe a 5 or 6 layer
oem gasket. also you want a big turbo gt35r and a very good fueling system (1000cc injectors and hondata/crome etc...
weld around the intake manifold and over bore it to 65mm and have fun with 25 psi. at least till it blows up</TD></TR></TABLE>
on a stock block? yeah have fun for about 20 minutes.

**** stacking gaskets. if you were really going to go that route build the bottom end. do it once and do it right.

1000cc injectors is way overkill for an F motor, even at 450 hp.

 

Just so you know, putting a H23 head on a F block is a huge project in itself, its been done a couple of times but its not nearly as easy as the hybrids done on small block Honda motors. If you are just looking to do a turbo build, I would stick with a regular F head. You said you didn't want to deal with vtec. Thats fine, the the F22B2 is non vtec as well as all of the F22As. I have heard that the As have the best flowing heads of all the single cam F motors, but am not totally sure, anyone feel free to correct or verify me on that one. If you plan on doing head work regardless though i don't know if i would worry about it.

As for wanting big power on stock a stock block, people have run near 300 horse fairly reliably on daily drivers from what i understand. If i were you i would value notoriusB's advice, he has been through multiple stock boosted F series motors, so he knows what hes talking about when it comes to how much a stock block can take. You seem pretty knowledgeable, have fun.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
on a stock block? yeah have fun for about 20 minutes.

**** stacking gaskets. if you were really going to go that route build the bottom end. do it once and do it right.


1000cc injectors is way overkill for an F motor, even at 450 hp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i would build the short block.
aftermarket pistons+rod with stock sleeves might hold up alittle
he doent want to built the short block.
1000cc are safe measure
read his org post

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">read his org post</TD></TR></TABLE>
I did, thanks. Don't be an *** because you're advising him to go way overkill and I'm calling you on it. 1000cc is not a safe measure, it is a WASTE on an F motor. And a GT35R + stock F22B block is stupid, the block will give out before you even reach that turbo's efficiency range.

pistons+rods in stock sleeves will last a long time, I've been beating on my stock sleeves for a long time now, but you obviously don't think I know what I'm talking about so I'm done here. Keep giving him stupid advice.

 

There are still a few questions that I havent gotten any response too ie axles with the accord tranny ect ect. and head configuration such as a valvesprings ect ect.

ttt

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blaze45 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why do I need to weld the IM? I have herd of people taking part of the H23 IM and the F22 IM and putting them togeathor. (do they bolt togeathor or do you weld them) Why is this? BTW, do you guys just wire the secondary butterflies to stay open in the IMs or what? Also, why would I stack so many gaskets? I dont really want to go much below the stock compression #s that badly. Im still working on what the dynamic compression is going to running at, so I guess that would influence if I swapped heads and had a higher CR and the need for race gas. I dont think that Ill need 1000cc inejctors, but Im still working out BSFC #s, after I figure that out, as well as what pump Im going to use and what pressure Im going to run at then Ill know for sure. Is the F22a a non VTEC head? What If so, whats its rev limit and is it DOHC? What is it constructed of? If I were to decide to run the 96 accord tranny, can I run the accord axles as well and have them fit a 92-95 civic coupe without any mix and matching with inner and outer knucles/hubs?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i ment if you are using a f22 from 94 and up. the intake manifold is really thin around the throttle flange. i needed to add meterial around it in order to overbore it without going thru. i just seen a thread about someone who got the h23 manifold to work with the 94 + heads also.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I did, thanks. Don't be an *** because you're advising him to go way overkill and I'm calling you on it. 1000cc is not a safe measure, it is a WASTE on an F motor. And a GT35R + stock F22B block is stupid, the block will give out before you even reach that turbo's efficiency range.

pistons+rods in stock sleeves will last a long time, I've been beating on my stock sleeves for a long time now, but you obviously don't think I know what I'm talking about so I'm done here. Keep giving him stupid advice. </TD></TR></TABLE>

450tq here we come
sc61 is a pretty big turbo
damn my girl isn't even that senitive


Modified by alterdcreations at 7:25 AM 11/16/2006


Modified by alterdcreations at 7:29 AM 11/16/2006

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1806329
here is that link.
let me know if you need a head

 

You WILL NOT make 450 or even close on a stock bottom end, it will not happen, there is no chance, And Yes i read that the Motors are going for 50 dollars, Why Waste time and money building a motor, when it WILL blow up... Why not do it right the first time,

Sleeve the block, Build the bottom end, itll be plenty strong, and youll be able to make nice power, ESPECIALLY since most F22s are gonna have 120k+ on them...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">450tq here we come
sc61 is a pretty big turbo
</TD></TR></TABLE>
what's your point?

 

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
what's your point? </TD></TR></TABLE>
how much hp are you getting out of your setup?
how much boost are you running
what rpm does your boost come in at?
also what compression?
and how high do you rev your engine?
does your boost fall off at all?


Modified by alterdcreations at 12:37 PM 11/16/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blaze45 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is the F22a a non VTEC head? What If so, whats its rev limit and is it DOHC? What is it constructed of? If I were to decide to run the 96 accord tranny, can I run the accord axles as well and have them fit a 92-95 civic coupe without any mix and matching with inner and outer knucles/hubs?</TD></TR></TABLE>

F22A is the non-vtec head off the early 90-93 Accords. You may have to check the law in your area as to putting an older motor in the car. Or if you get a 92 Civic, find a 92 or 93 block. I'm not sure about puting the f22a head on the b1/b2 block (if anybody knows, please post this)

The axles/mounts/etc will be the exactly same as H22 for the F22A, the drivers side mount is slightly different on the F22b, but it will be workable. The axles are the same ones you use for an H22 swap, and all H/F trannies are going to be compatable (except Prelude Type SH ones). You can even use an LSD Prelude trans.