Is it correct to say that swaybars simply act as normal springs (linear coil springs) during corning?

If so, can you run no swaybars and just run super hard springs at all four corners (softer up front to compensate for weight bias) on a track car or just an occasional streetuse car?

Wouldn't this be beneficial on a fwd car because it would prevent squat and decrease wheelspin under straightaway acceleration, so you could have the benefit of stoplight acceleration and take advantage of honda handling?

(What are the negatives of a completely solid suspension system/its effects on corning acceleration/g forces)?

Summation: Is it advantageous to use the stiffest suspension that your body can handle? Can you substitute stiffer springs for the lack of swaybars if ride quality is not important?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is it correct to say that swaybars simply act as normal springs (linear coil springs) during corning?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, not correct.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wouldn't this be beneficial on a fwd car because it would prevent squat and decrease wheelspin under straightaway acceleration, so you could have the benefit of stoplight acceleration and take advantage of honda handling?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Suspension doesn't only function during straight line acceleration. Unless you're building a drag car, you need to consider performance in all aspects of handling when putting together a suspension setup.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(What are the negatives of a completely solid suspension system/its effects on corning acceleration/g forces)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
A suspension that has no compliance (not possible) is not a suspension at all. A suspension must let the wheel travel up and down to maintain contact with the ground over disturbances, among other things.

 

I think I may have a very aggressive suspension for my crx daily.

It consists of:

- PIC Adjustable coilovers 12k front + 14k rear
- Front and rear Neuspeed sway bars
- Front Neuspeed strut bar
- Rear Neuspeed Lower Tie bar

Advantages: Car handles like a go cart (if not better)

Disadvantages: My kidneys hurt, my cd player keeps skipping,

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rob. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think I may have a very aggressive suspension for my crx daily.

It consists of:

- PIC Adjustable coilovers 12k front + 14k rear
- Front and rear Neuspeed sway bars
- Front Neuspeed strut bar
- Rear Neuspeed Lower Tie bar

Advantages: Car handles like a go cart (if not better)

Disadvantages: My kidneys hurt, my cd player keeps skipping,</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why does people say their car handles great like a go cart? go kart has no suspension. The only reason they handle well is because they have very low center of gravity and weigh close to nothing compares to your car.

Try to setup your car like a go kart and it will handle like ****.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie Hartanto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why does people say their car handles great like a go cart? go kart has no suspension. The only reason they handle well is because they have very low center of gravity and weigh close to nothing compares to your car.

Try to setup your car like a go kart and it will handle like ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol. im glad youre here andrie.

i was gonna say the same thing. but im tired of responding to these kids who have no clue.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rob. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Disadvantages: My kidneys hurt, my cd player keeps skipping,</TD></TR></TABLE>

sounds like your suspension really sucks actually.

 

Its called a hyperbole, a figure of speech where a person uses an exaggeration to describe what they are talking about. Magazines use these expressions all the time - do you frequently write letters to the editors to ask them the same question?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sounds like your suspension really sucks actually.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sounds like you, again, are speaking out of place Tyson. I'd appreciate it if you would save your quips for things you know something about.

 

haha right. ok.

whatever noob4life.

:unsubscribed:

 

You use my old screen name like its some sort of secret that I changed. Do you have something to say? Feel free to use the PM's.

edit: Splendid. Contributing nothing constructive to the thread, but in and out quick enough to drop another of his signature golden nuggets.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PIC Performance &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its called a hyperbole, a figure of speech where a person uses an exaggeration to describe what they are talking about. Magazines use these expressions all the time - do you frequently write letters to the editors to ask them the same question?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why don't you post your real name so I know who I am speaking with?

Sure, which magazines? A technical and good magazine like Race Car Engineering or show car magazine like the dime a dozen magazines out there?

 

My name is readily available in my profile, always has been.

All publications will use hyperboles. PIck up you latest issue of Racecar Engineering, Time Magazine, People, New York Times, National Enquirer, SCC, so on and so forth - its not restricted to only certain magazines, and certainly not a new writing technique.

 

Reasons why people attach sway bars front and back lower upper etc. is simply because it makes the sub-frame of the car stronger instead of having a roll feeling this makes corning so much more better. a upper front sway bar controls the front movements of the car the rear sway bar which lies beneath the car controls the control arms to move together instead of one at a time or un-even. Suspension is always good as well but even with stiffer suspension doesnt effect the roll of the car this is why we have sway bars. and my honest opinion dont bother with the c-pillar bar it does you no good....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 90stdhb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is it correct to say that swaybars simply act as normal springs (linear coil springs) during corning?

If so, can you run no swaybars and just run super hard springs at all four corners (softer up front to compensate for weight bias) on a track car or just an occasional streetuse car?

Wouldn't this be beneficial on a fwd car because it would prevent squat and decrease wheelspin under straightaway acceleration, so you could have the benefit of stoplight acceleration and take advantage of honda handling?

(What are the negatives of a completely solid suspension system/its effects on corning acceleration/g forces)?

Summation: Is it advantageous to use the stiffest suspension that your body can handle? Can you substitute stiffer springs for the lack of swaybars if ride quality is not important?</TD></TR></TABLE>

A sway bar act as a torsion spring across the L and R suspension. It has no effect of the roll stiffness of the car, except when L/R are in uneven movements( e.g. hitting a speed bump with only 1 side of the car)

Having a sway bar or not does not affect straight line acceleration.

The trouble about spring stiffness is it is always a compromise, you can only have that hard of a spring for a certain tire/surface. A sway bar allows you to add additional roll stiffness while having a softer spring to maintain traction on corner.

Even go karts have a spring mass system that acts as suspension. The inflated tire itself is a spring to some degree. But like Andrie said, it only works for a car that light. Your car with perfectly stiff suspension may run pretty good down the strip, but you arent going to corner at all. Ever wondered why they never recommended ussing drag coilovers on street?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 95IRS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Reasons why people attach sway bars front and back lower upper etc. is simply because it makes the sub-frame of the car stronger instead of having a roll feeling this makes corning so much more better. a upper front sway bar controls the front movements of the car the rear sway bar which lies beneath the car controls the control arms to move together instead of one at a time or un-even. Suspension is always good as well but even with stiffer suspension doesnt effect the roll of the car this is why we have sway bars. and my honest opinion dont bother with the c-pillar bar it does you no good....</TD></TR></TABLE>

wtf, do you understand the difference between a strut bar and swaybar?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

wtf, do you understand the difference between a strut bar and swaybar?</TD></TR></TABLE>


wtf are you going to post something with some technical content or just bitch at everything?


Anyway, like the guy said before, there's always a compromise. Stiff suspension=rough ride. Do your homework before buying anything.

 

ill just copy and paste.

a swaybar is often called anti-roll(sway) bar, because that is more of what it does, preventing roll rather than promoting. its just easier to say swaybar. this item is a functional, active part of the suspension. ive not seen any swaybar, either front or rear or both, sold relatively cheaply on ebay. a swaybar connects the suspension of the two sides together and resists the independent motion of each. so if on one side, the wheel is being pushed down, the other wheel is being pushed down as well. same thing if one is going up, the other is pushed up. This will in effect add or subtract to the spring rate on the wheel when you need it most, during turning. it theoretically would not change anything when going straight over a speedbump when both wheels are moving the same amount. however youll feel the effect of the swaybar when one wheel goes over a pothole moreso because youve taken away fro mthe independent suspension. you can have a front swaybar connecting the two front wheels, or in the rear, or both.

a strut bar is a structural addition to the chassis. it is not a part of the suspension. however, it does resist unintented displacement of suspension points when the chassis is under handling forces. this actually is more important in cars with macphersion suspension where the suspension pushes a lateral force at the top of the strut mounted to the chassis. this is why its called a strut bar, even tho not all cars have struts. movement of the top strut anchor would mean an extra change in suspension geometry, basically camber, usually in a negative way. but it actually isnt so much of an effect with honda double wishbone suspension. the strut bar still does function as a structural member and helps maintain chassis rigidity.

a tie BAR is another structural member that is intended to resist any chassis flex. these are placed underneath the chassis and bolts to two points on the suspension, but not on a moving part. its just a chassis stiffener.

a tie ROD, as mentioned is part of the steering, most ppl will talk of tie rods as the actual tie rod END that is at the far ends of the steering rack and connects to the knuckle with a ball joint.

the part that will most affect how your car handles is going to be the swaybar, because its the only part that is an active member of the suspension. let me reiterate, a strut bar and tie bar are NOT part of the suspension, a sway bar IS. very general principles of handling are dictated by differences between front and rear traction. oversteer is a CONDITION (*1) where the front tires have RELATIVELY more grip than the rear, so during a turn the rear tires are going to slide out and have a bigger arc, think of a spinning car still moving in one direction basically as ultra extreme exampble. understeer is the opposite - the car does not want to rotate because the rears have more grip. general rule of suspension - stiffen the rear for oversteer, stiffen the front for understeer.

therefore, adding a swaybar to the front will PROMOTE A CONDITION of understeer. and conversely adding a rear swaybar will promote a condition of oversteer. adding both, well you get an all around stiffer car. i recommend the spring/shock setup you currently have, and then adding a rear swaybar. but i also would recommend that adding that front sway bar will give you that "riding on rails" feeling in handling. a lot of ppl seem to like that too. its up to you. you can get a kit and play with it to what you like. you can ask which one is better or "BEST" than the others, they all seem to work, some have adjustable positions. Suspension Techniques is a popular brand.

now theres a lot of cheap options for a front strut bar. when i added a NEUSPEED front strutbar to my otherwise stock CRX, i actually can say i notice a difference in handling, in a positive way it seemed. im not sure if the cheap ones work as well, as i havent tried. but why bother with cheap stuff. now, my opinion from other ppls feedback on REAR strutbars is that they are not useful and do not change anything. looks like it would really get in the way of the hatchspace anyway. doesnt seem worth it.

ive not added any tie bar to my car, my opinion is that either front or rear is unecessary. the crossmembers in the front and back are part of the strongest and most rigidly designed parts of the car. it seems its just flashy metal to me. not saying stock has no room for improvement, i just wouldnt get caught up with adding structural rigidity where its not needed as much. again, its not like it directly affects handling.

Footnotes:
(*1)i say condition because ANY car can be either be driven to a state of understeer or oversteer, without any change to the suspension. changing the suspension to alter the cars handling PROMOTES one condition or the other, but ppl who dont understand this think of cars with certain setups as "oversteer" or "understeer" when either is simply a state during the turn and is always changing in degree. its typical a car can exhibit corner ENTRY oversteer, and corner EXIT understeer. but that alone is dependent on HOW the driver actually drives the car into and out of the turn.

 

im not sure why everyone is on tysons nuts. he is right. that one guy was clueless in his post.

OP you are waaaaaaaaay off. you should check out some of the old suspension books like "how to make your car handle" etc. just go to amazon and type that book name in and then buy everythingt else that it says as well. lol.

i did and i now understand suspension a little. before i would come into threads like this and i wouldnt leave with anything valuable because the sad truth is that a lot of people simply repeat misinformation.

here is the gist of what you will get out of the suspension books...

if your car had no suspension you would a bump and the wheel that hit it would deflect off of it and the tire would not have enough contact with the road. suspension is a good thing and getting rid of it is the worst idea imaginable. ideally you want your suspension to be as soft as possible while still limiting body in corners and dive and squat in braking and accelerating. you can eliminate some body roll with stiff springs but that will make your car bouncey and you wont maintain maximum grip between tire and road. again, you want soft suspesnion so that the tires will follow the contours of the road, not bounce off of them and therefore lose contact with the road.

a better way to elimiante body roll is to use sway bars. sway bars dont add to the stiffness of the suispension unless both wheels encounter a bump simultaneously. a sway bar transfers weight from the outside wheel to the inside.

this is a better solution that super stiff springs.

seriously man, you should check out some of those books.

also, a thanks to tyson for recommending some books about a year ago.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrie Hartanto &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why does people say their car handles great like a go cart? go kart has no suspension. The only reason they handle well is because they have very low center of gravity and weigh close to nothing compares to your car.

Try to setup your car like a go kart and it will handle like ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>

he said that it handled like a go-kart, not that it handles like a crx with a go-kart suspension set up.
you said it yourself, go karts handle well

check out this go kart http://www.openwheelers.com.au...t.mpg

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by k624ash &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

he said that it handled like a go-kart, not that it handles like a crx with a go-kart suspension set up.
you said it yourself, go karts handle well
</TD></TR></TABLE>

like is term used to relate two items. A car should not handle like a go-kart.

Andrie said go-karts handle well for what they are. And then listed why they handle well with almost NO suspension (and thats if you consider tire stiffness part of the suspension). A production based car is absolutely NOTHING like a go-kart.

I never understood why people said "my/that car handels like a go-cart." If my car handled like a go cart i would be even slower then i am now.

 

i dont understand the idiom "handles like its on rails". i dunno, its not like i look at a train and think, damn thats great handling.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont understand the idiom "handles like its on rails". i dunno, its not like i look at a train and think, damn thats great handling.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

When i first started driving, i thought that a car that was hooked up all around, like it was on a set of rails would be good.

I quickly found out that rotation is my freind.

 

Let me just state a few things that I've liked so far and just some intuitions:

1. Streetcars and Trackcars need completely different setups to compensate for rough vs. smooth surfaces, respectively.
2. A completely stiff suspension (no suspension) on the street is anti-productive, because your tires will not stay in contact with the road.
3. You want the softest springs (and matching shocks) you can get for a streetcar (This makes sense as long as you get springs that are stiff enough to prevent hitting the bumpstop).
4. From above, if your car is lowered (to prevent body roll by lowering CG), you need correspondingly stiffer springs and shocks to prevent hitting bumpstops.
5. Body roll is your enemy (pertaining to handling).
6. Soft springs promote body roll, which can be fixed with swaybars (anti-swaybars).

Questions:
Let's assume we want neutral handling.

1. Should a swaybar set (fr/rr couple) be chosen based on weight distribution (ie. a car that is 50/50 would necessitate equal sized swaybars,a car with 60/40 (honda) would require a larger rear bar for neutrality)?

Basically this whole post is about maximizing the handling potential of a vehicle, without using the trial and error method. Using the trial and error method costs money, so I expect that with a little deliberation, a satisfactory starting point can be assessed since there are so many options for suspension systems.

 

theory and empirical data says you increase wheel rate greater in the rear to reduce understeer/increase oversteer.

its the same on RWD and FWD cars.

you can increase wheel rate with springs and/or swaybars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont understand the idiom "handles like its on rails". i dunno, its not like i look at a train and think, damn thats great handling.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PIC Performance &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No, not correct.


Suspension doesn't only function during straight line acceleration. Unless you're building a drag car, you need to consider performance in all aspects of handling when putting together a suspension setup.


A suspension that has no compliance (not possible) is not a suspension at all. A suspension must let the wheel travel up and down to maintain contact with the ground over disturbances, among other things. </TD></TR></TABLE>

didnt read the whole thread just got to this and said amen

 

what about a roller coaster? "handles on like its on rails" means that in turns the car has very little body roll and that the the car has a lot of grip. like it feels like the car is capable of anything you throw at it.