Running Si on Ethanol?
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Omaha, NE, USA
Running Si on Ethanol?
Due to the high compression of the Si and the need for higher octane is it possible that the Si could run on ethanol? I have heard mixed good reviews on cars with higher compression. If so what would need to be replaced? What actually gets damaged (ie cat converter, fuel rails, pistons, etc?) Thanks
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From: Clarksville, TN
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (Jay2005)
To my knowledge, there is no way the Si can run on ethanol.
I may be wrong. But to my liimited knowledge on this, a motor has to be specially designed to run on E-85. I may be wrong.
I may be wrong. But to my liimited knowledge on this, a motor has to be specially designed to run on E-85. I may be wrong.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: JoCo, KS, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (Jay2005)
The fuel system in the Si is not designed correctly to safely run E85.
Flexfuel vehicles have a special fuel system that is designed to run it. The ingredients in the gasoline will eat away at a normal fuel system not designed for it.
Flexfuel vehicles have a special fuel system that is designed to run it. The ingredients in the gasoline will eat away at a normal fuel system not designed for it.
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Grand Rapids, MI, US
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (RWatters)
From the Honda owner link:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Some gas stations in our area sell oxygenated fuels or fuels that contain other additives. What's Honda's position on these fuels?
...
Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Some gas stations in our area sell oxygenated fuels or fuels that contain other additives. What's Honda's position on these fuels?
...
Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Wickhaven, Pa
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (SeanJohn1802)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SeanJohn1802 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Some gas stations in our area sell oxygenated fuels or fuels that contain other additives. What's Honda's position on these fuels?
...
Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, I asked the same question a few months back, and I read my manual and found my answer. I was a little sad.
Some gas stations in our area sell oxygenated fuels or fuels that contain other additives. What's Honda's position on these fuels?
...
Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, I asked the same question a few months back, and I read my manual and found my answer. I was a little sad.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Omaha, NE, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (tsdunay)
I didnt ask for the manual to answer...I wanted to know what is the big difference...obviously it is the fuel delivery that is the issue and possibly a mis fire if not properly ignited. Anyone know what would have to be done to make it work?
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From: Upstate, NY, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (Jay2005)
Ethanol burns colder than regular gasoline. Regular gasoline obviously then burns hotter. The engine requires a certain level of heat to function properly. Unless the engine can handle the colder burn temperatures of ethanol and that it was stated by the manufacturer that the vehicle can handle ethanol, I wouldn't use ethanol.
If you want to experience the effects dump too much dry gas in your gas tank and see how shakey things get. Most dry gas is composed of ethanol and other alcohols which burn colder as well.
If you want to experience the effects dump too much dry gas in your gas tank and see how shakey things get. Most dry gas is composed of ethanol and other alcohols which burn colder as well.
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: KY
Re: Running Si on Ethanol? (Jay2005)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jay2005 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didnt ask for the manual to answer...I wanted to know what is the big difference...obviously it is the fuel delivery that is the issue and possibly a mis fire if not properly ignited. Anyone know what would have to be done to make it work?</TD></TR></TABLE>
1) You would have to have complete control over the car's computer to get it to run properly.
2) I'm not sure if 11:1 compression would be optimal for an E85 engine, I think you can go up to 13:1 to get better efficiency.
3) I am not aware of any damage to the fuel system that would occur from running E85 if the engine was tuned to run on it. In other words, I don't think E85 will "eat the rubber" or "pit the metal" like some people claim. We're talking about Ethanol, not Methanol.
4) Flex-fuel vehicles don't get good mileage on E85 because they also have to be able to run on E0 (gas). If you built a motor with high compression and tuned it to run on E85, you could get good decent mileage out of it. (but you couldn't run gas)
5) Flex-fuel vehicles have special injectors and fuel systems because they need them to determine what amount of Ethanol is in the gas and run everything accordingly. It is not just because it has E85 going flowing through it.
I just typed this up quick, I can maybe elaborate more later tonight. There is a lot of good information out there if you do a google search. In summary, you won't be able to get your car to run on E85 and/or gas (flex-fuel), but you could build it/ tune it to run solely on E85.
http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
1) You would have to have complete control over the car's computer to get it to run properly.
2) I'm not sure if 11:1 compression would be optimal for an E85 engine, I think you can go up to 13:1 to get better efficiency.
3) I am not aware of any damage to the fuel system that would occur from running E85 if the engine was tuned to run on it. In other words, I don't think E85 will "eat the rubber" or "pit the metal" like some people claim. We're talking about Ethanol, not Methanol.
4) Flex-fuel vehicles don't get good mileage on E85 because they also have to be able to run on E0 (gas). If you built a motor with high compression and tuned it to run on E85, you could get good decent mileage out of it. (but you couldn't run gas)
5) Flex-fuel vehicles have special injectors and fuel systems because they need them to determine what amount of Ethanol is in the gas and run everything accordingly. It is not just because it has E85 going flowing through it.
I just typed this up quick, I can maybe elaborate more later tonight. There is a lot of good information out there if you do a google search. In summary, you won't be able to get your car to run on E85 and/or gas (flex-fuel), but you could build it/ tune it to run solely on E85.
http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php
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Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
I figured I'd bump this thread now that my Si is running on e85.
I swapped to a Walbro 255 fuel pump, and already had 650cc injectors for my 3.0" pulley on the supercharger.
Car runs very well, and will be dyno tuning here in the next few weeks.
Of course the manufacturer will say not to run it, simply because most people who would run e85 are the same type of people that would accidentally fill up with diesel.
If the car is tuned for it, what's the big deal? There are tons of guys doing it in other cars.
I swapped to a Walbro 255 fuel pump, and already had 650cc injectors for my 3.0" pulley on the supercharger.
Car runs very well, and will be dyno tuning here in the next few weeks.
Of course the manufacturer will say not to run it, simply because most people who would run e85 are the same type of people that would accidentally fill up with diesel.
If the car is tuned for it, what's the big deal? There are tons of guys doing it in other cars.
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From: Maricopa County
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
Here are a couple pics of it on my car.
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From: killafornia
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
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Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
Holly Crap $1.90 a gallon, that is awesome. To bad we don't have many (if any) places in CA who sell E85. I am paying $6.95 a gallon for 100 octane racing fuel.
Road House
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From: Home of Champions. The Boston Massachusetts.
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
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From: killafornia
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
unless i can find a way to get some shipped to my house
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
You can get it shipped to your house, but the shipping costs would be more than price of the fuel if you talking about E85. You would also have to deal with a 55 gallon drum (at least the 104 octane I buy is only sold in 55 gallon drums - Sunoco GT Plus).
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From: 626, ca, united states
Re: Running Si on Ethanol?
Why is E85 a better fuel ?
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
Ethanol is a very boost friendly fuel for many reasons.
1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline -- that means higher VE.
2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100-106
3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the ECU problems when you mix them.
4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. (Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.
5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.
6. It will, at proper mixtures lower EGT's by around 200 deg F, but due to the higher quantity of exhaust gas products it produces you do not lose any spool up (in fact I would wager spool up is better).
7. It is much cheaper (if you go to a station that is not trying to price gouge). I paid around $1.90/gal just this past weekend.
Thanks for sharing!
