Spring Rates vs. Tires EG Civic
800# valving and spring rate too much for Falken Rt615s or Hankook Ventus Rs2?

The car
95 Civic Cpe Gutted, no roll cage, doing HPDEs
K20a2 6spd
Don’t RAG on Omni Pwr Street Coilovers 550fr/440r rates
GSR brake upgrade, Carbotech xp6 pads
Stock front sway bar - - Soon to have rear GSR Sway installed - - Full Suspension Techniques bushings all around.
16x7 desmond rims
205/45/16 Hankook Ventus Rs-2 200 tread wear tires

NOT MY DAILY DRIVER

Near Future suspension Setup/ideas<U></U>
http://www.advance-design.com/ &lt; Made by Ground Control
AD coilovers valved for 800#. Buy some 700# springs and 800# springs and play around. Go bigger on rear when I get faster.
GSR sway rear, Stock or no front sway bar, front and rear strut tower bars until I get a roll cage. I want predictability and power oversteer b/c HPDEs can get crazy and if I’m at 100% around a corner and someone screws up, I want to be able to make (slight) corrections in corner so **** doesn’t happen

I will be doing atleast one or two more HPDEs on Hankook RS-2s and then will upgrade to such to Toyo RA1s or equivalent and then go up to full racing slicks from Hoosier or Kuhmo.

But I would like to know if you guys think that 800# valving/springs are too much for tires like Falken RT615s, Ventus RS2s and other high performance tires(not Slicks or purpose built RACE tires)

Thanks for the help

 

I think that sounds like too much spring. I run 550/650 on my H1 EF and love it. The big-spring heroes out here sometimes run 650/800 on Civics and CRXs. 800/800 sounds like madness to me...

 

bah, 650 is soft. shocks matter more the spring rate once you get stiff springs. AD's won't cut it. look into some koni 3011's.

 

solo-X
Why don't you think the ADs wont cut it at those spring rates?

The engineer/builder there at GC said some people have gotten away with running up to 300# heavier springs than the strut was valved for originally... .

I was thinking 700fr and 800rear to start with actually. Start with just a front 14mm sway on there and add the rear If I need more turn in at the track.

The main question really is if I can/should be able to use a RT615 or Hankook Ventus RS2 with this high of spring rates without creating a war: tire vs spring where ultimately predictability and grip suffer.. .

If I have to go to a Toyo RA1 or yoko A032 I will, but I would like to wear out my hankooks first... .

 

do you have experience ? ^^^

 

I have little experience.. .

one solo day and one HPDE under my belt with this car.

This car is purpose built. Going to continue doing more HPDEs and some Solo when I can fit it in.. .


Modified by 6spdKEG at 5:47 AM 10/2/2006

 

you don't valve shocks for spring rates. you valve shocks for the range of piston velocities they will see. part of determining that looks at the spring rates, but even then there is no set value you want for a particular piston velocity, spring rate, motion ratio, and static corner weight. each driver will have their own particular taste on what level of under or over damping they want. (a damper/spring system on a car is rarely if ever critically damped) that may change depending on what the suspension/chassis is doing. so you see, it's not as simple as "will these dampers handle these spring rates?".

the reason i suggest you stay away from the AD's is mostly due to their qc issues. just as important though is that they are excedingly easy to setup wrong and they don't seem to work over a wide variety of surfaces. for someone with the limited experience you have both with suspension theory and driving i'd recommend a single adjustable shock with a performance valving. the koni RACE dampers fit this perfectly. they come shortened and valved with a race proven valving. their is an expansive knowledge base with that damper and valving so chances are that wherever you go you'll be able to find someone that can help you set them up.

finally, while 800lb springs are fine for street tires, i would not use AD's with street tires. They build too much low speed bump force and make it very difficult to keep the car from skittering.

 

thanks for the suggestion. I will look into the Konis. Ground controll is going to be upset when I cancel the order.. . **** happens, they don't have my money yet anyhow.

The ADs appear to be a superior coilover to the Koni/GC setup but I guess not.. .

 

You might consider looking into this a little further than taking one man's opinion over the Internet. Has he ever owned a set of ADs? Does he even know what he's talking about? Has he ever even road-raced on the spring rates he says are weak (and offers NO facts of experiences to support his claims.)

Jay has been doing this quite a while. Sure, he's selling the product, so he's going to say they're good. But there are a ton of BMW guys running his stuff who swear buy it. Writer/engineer Mike Kojima thinks very highly of the ADs as a pretty good bang for the buck.

I have never run ADs and I think Koni's would be a fine choice as well. My point is there are trade offs for every decision. We don't know if our genius friend above is basing his thoughts on much more than here-say or even if he knows what the relative costs are. But we do know that he's fairly narrow minded, makes rash statements without support and seems to be more of an auto-tosser than a road racer.

Proceed with caution.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You might consider looking into this a little further than taking one man's opinion over the Internet. Has he ever owned a set of ADs? Does he even know what he's talking about? Has he ever even road-raced on the spring rates he says are weak (and offers NO facts of experiences to support his claims.)

Jay has been doing this quite a while. Sure, he's selling the product, so he's going to say they're good. But there are a ton of BMW guys running his stuff who swear buy it. Writer/engineer Mike Kojima thinks very highly of the ADs as a pretty good bang for the buck.

I have never run ADs and I think Koni's would be a fine choice as well. My point is there are trade offs for every decision. We don't know if our genius friend above is basing his thoughts on much more than here-say or even if he knows what the relative costs are. But we do know that he's fairly narrow minded, makes rash statements without support and seems to be more of an auto-tosser than a road racer.

Proceed with caution.</TD></TR></TABLE>

what have i posted that is more narrow minded and rash then the elitist bullshit you've posted? you don't even own the car the OP owns, nor race on street tires, nor work with the rates the OP is interested in. yet you feel you are in the position to arbitrarily say "800lb springs are too stiff"? I do all of the above and at a nationally competitive level. if you'd like more support for my "rash statements", ask for it. i'll happily explain what i know and don't know to you, but i'm not going to right a book on why i feel the way i feel if someone is just asking for my opinion.

btw, kojima was on koni's before he wrecked his car. he and i had a huge discussion over on sr20forums with him vehemently defending the AD's. then he developed a custom housing to adapt koni's to a sentra. hrm.... and as for him thinking highly of the AD's, well, i guess i would too if they were all but given to me.

i know bmw guys that are completely fed up with their AD's. where the shock is so bad that when someone new drives the car the first thing they say is that the shocks suck. check out user SPiFF's for sale thread on why he is selling his AD's and switching to koni 30's.

anyhow, back to the original topic. the OP asked if 800lb springs on an EG are too much for street tires. from experience, i know that street tires can handle WAY more then 800lb spring rates but that you need to be careful with the shock valving to make it work. building force too quickly, particularly low speed bump, will make the tire loose grip. the AD's are valved to build a lot of low speed bump. don't beleive me? get a dyno printout of the damper. as such, i don't think the AD's will accomplish what the OP needs them to. there are other dampers on the market that will have more flexibility and allow the OP to run street tires now and "graduate" to r-comps later without having to revalve the shock. i prefer koni.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what have i posted that is more narrow minded and rash then the elitist bullshit you've posted? you don't even own the car the OP owns, nor race on street tires, nor work with the rates the OP is interested in. yet you feel you are in the position to arbitrarily say "800lb springs are too stiff"? I do all of the above and at a nationally competitive level. if you'd like more support for my "rash statements", ask for it. i'll happily explain what i know and don't know to you, but i'm not going to right a book on why i feel the way i feel if someone is just asking for my opinion.

btw, kojima was on koni's before he wrecked his car. he and i had a huge discussion over on sr20forums with him vehemently defending the AD's. then he developed a custom housing to adapt koni's to a sentra. hrm.... and as for him thinking highly of the AD's, well, i guess i would too if they were all but given to me.

i know bmw guys that are completely fed up with their AD's. where the shock is so bad that when someone new drives the car the first thing they say is that the shocks suck. check out user SPiFF's for sale thread on why he is selling his AD's and switching to koni 30's.

anyhow, back to the original topic. the OP asked if 800lb springs on an EG are too much for street tires. from experience, i know that street tires can handle WAY more then 800lb spring rates but that you need to be careful with the shock valving to make it work. building force too quickly, particularly low speed bump, will make the tire loose grip. the AD's are valved to build a lot of low speed bump. don't beleive me? get a dyno printout of the damper. as such, i don't think the AD's will accomplish what the OP needs them to. there are other dampers on the market that will have more flexibility and allow the OP to run street tires now and "graduate" to r-comps later without having to revalve the shock. i prefer koni.</TD></TR></TABLE>

...a much better, more helpful and articulate response than:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">bah, 650 is soft. shocks matter more the spring rate once you get stiff springs. AD's won't cut it. look into some koni 3011's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bravo.

As for the spring rates, saying "street tires can handle WAY more then 800lb spring rates" is a lot differernt than off handedly stating "bah, 650 is soft". As Colin Chapman once said, any suspension will work if you don't let it.

Thawley -- elitist bullshitter

PS Kojima did not wreck his car. He wrecked Tim Nichols' car.

 

Springs and shocks aside, you should wait a bit before hopping on the R-compound tire wagon. Purpose-built car or not, you'll learn a lot more from a street tire if you stick with it for awhile. R-comps have a way of hiding mistakes, and you sure won't be maximizing their potential.

&lt;--- Ran Azenis for 3 1/2 years, and thoroughly enjoyed rolling inexperienced people R-comp users with his beat street tires

 

The only thing being left out of this whole discussion is the driver - the most important part of the equation. Most of the time, it is better for new track drivers to start with lower spring rates and street tires to get a better feel for how a car responds on the track at much higher speeds than this driver has probably experienced. Going from the street to full-stiff race set-up for an experienced racer may scare the living **** at of a new driver. A few rookie drivers may be able to adapt quickly to a race set-up, but I wouldn't bet on it. That's why for the majority of cases I would recommend taking a car with only minimal suspension modifications to the track for the first time and with tire with minimal treadwear of 200. Then, the rookie driver can worry about driving the racing line (or close to it) and gradually building speed as his/her experience grows with each passing track session.

After a couple of track events, maybe a nice setup with say Koni OTS and GC with moderate rate springs with the same tires as before. For track days, sticking with the setup would be good for most drivers. When that driver wants to race the same car, then after all the safety stuff is bought and installed, then those same Konis can be shortened and revalved for the final race setup including the hight spring rates and R compound tires. The Koni 3011's are a great damper, but until the driver gets some good race track time, I would even worry about changing until the driver can determine when and at which corner of the car to start changing damping settings, spring rates, camber, and tire pressures.

I'm not sure how much track experience the OP has to date, so he might be ready for a mid-stiff setup right now. I am currently building an Integra up very slowly with the above procedure so that I can at least write subjectively about my experiences at different suspension stiffnesses at each step along the way for an article on going from track noob to race driver in graduated steps. My experience has always been in racecars that have full stiff setups, but I have discussed the different spring rates with a large number of people to come up with my suggestions stated above. With my Integra, I plan to experience it first hand.

 

I prefer koni 2812's

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MSchu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I prefer koni 2812's</TD></TR></TABLE>

No doubt about it, the 2812 is an awesome damper. The 3011, which is based on older technology, is also a great monotube damper for club racing on up. The only thing I don't like about my 3011's is the difficulty on making compression damping changes. However, once you find where you want the compression damping to be for a given track, it is usually set for the weekend (except if it rains, which it doesn't often do in California). The rebound damping adjustment is easy to change, which is good thing since almost all changes to the damper revolve around changing only the rebound.

 

The 2812 is also a much more expensive damper vs. the 3011.

I would suggest you follow the Mac man's advice. Get a 'mid-stiff' set up in there.

As suggested, some OTS Koni yellows or Tokico Illuminas, decent coilover sleeves and some linear rate springs of say 500F/600R would be a good start. Get safety equipment. Practice driving. A lot. Now upgrade suspension to race spec.

BTW, I race a EG with 3011's & stiff springs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MSchu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I prefer koni 2812's</TD></TR></TABLE>

and you say a car that understeers is faster then a car that rotates. (this statment doesn't mean the 2812's aren't good, it was in tangent to what thawley said about what qualifies who.

how many different dampers have you had? Saying prefer insenuates you have used 3011's, AD's, ect.

I 'moved' up through alot of suspensions. Each one worked great for what i needed, as i grew out of it i upgraded. I made the switch to the 3011's not really becuase i out grew my Spss3 valved koni, i still could have went much faster on them. I switched for other reasons.

for 98% of the population that races at the amature level 3011's (or other's at the same preformance level) are all that is needed. In fact i probably didn't need mine.

As others have said, work your way up.

also When you buy quality parts like Koni's and Ground controls, you really don't loose you money. Meaning you don't take a HUGE hit when you go to sell them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW, I race a EG with 3011's & stiff springs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, and you get your *** kicked on a regular basis... I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the shocks in the new car.

 

Now that hurts John

 

take note S93... Neutral to SLIGHT understeer, class dismissed

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MSchu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">take note S93... Neutral to SLIGHT understeer, class dismissed</TD></TR></TABLE>

A fwd car that pushes is....slow.

 

Don't tell that to Tom Lepper...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

A fwd car that pushes is....slow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly!


and all of the fastest pro FWD cars, RTR, Tri-piont, goergian bay, i-moto, ect ALL have a rear baisest (rear roll stiffness great then the front) setup. It is pretty much universial for FWD cars in NA, Mazda, Acura, Chevy, all run the rear bais setup. Do you really think they have it wrong...?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't tell that to Tom Lepper...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep, I've seen Tom get exactly 100% of the life out of a set of front tires. I don't mean race life, I mean life to the point where the tire will not hold air any longer. I am pretty sure that the steel cords were causing a slight push condition for good ole Tom that day.

 

great stuff guys.

FYI to all, I don't have much experience on the track.

Mainly I want to buy some new coilovers/go with a new setup b/c I know that I can already outdrive my Omnis. Found this out on my first Track session. 2 day event.

I've found that my car is fairly neutral and when I brake too late into the corner while turning (trail braking) I can put my car into oversteer and slide my *** end around.

I've learned how to correct this and feel this in the seat of my pants. Ultimately I think I need to upgrade but we'll see.

This is the new plan:
Keep the Omni pwr 550/450 coilovers on
take the front 14mm sway bar off
Intsall front GSR bar
Install Rear GSR bar

Hopefully my car will still stay neutral and fast.

Next. . Go to the track again with the same Hankook Ventus RS2s and rip it up.

Then if I think I just have to have a new set of coilovers b/c I think I could do better with a stiffer setup, then I will look into the typical Koni 3011s with GC and extended top mounts.

If I think I still have some learning to do. I'll put the money into a roll cage and some new seats.