After my first gymkhana event yesterday I experienced alot of understeer in my car. I was curious as to how I can correct or correctly drive through this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by junkyard racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After my first gymkhana event yesterday I experienced alot of understeer in my car. I was curious as to how I can correct or correctly drive through this.

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What class, something stock-ish? Makes a big difference on what you can adjust. You also might note if it understeers more at the start of a corner, or at the end, or at the middle.

Less front swaybar, more rear swaybar
"more optimal" front tire pressures, wider front tires
more front camber
Basically, stiffen the rear, loosen the front, get more traction in front.

As far as driving around it, trail braking always helped me. Be easy with it, you just want to shift the weight to the front, not spend all of your front tires slowing the car..

-Chris

 

Class, its more of a "run what you bring" kinda deal. Not really a class at all.

My set-up suspension wise is:
Spoon struts, H&R race springs, ITR lower tie bar, stock SiR sway sway bar (F&R) Spoon upper and lower tie bar in the rear.

Tires, I ran a BFG grid II which is a fairly decent track/street tire, I ran 34psi all the way around.

I have a ITR sway bar with this kit for installation
http://www.geocities.com/bretq/mounting_kit.html
but im a little nervous to install it, as I dont want to rip my subframe.

I also tried left foot braking to bring the rear of the car around, but I didnt know if that was the 'proper' way of correcting understeer.

 

In most cases it is because you are going to fast into a turn. Just slow down more. Also helps a little to bias pressures a bit between front and back.

I usually do about 41 front and 35-38 rear. Higher to make the car more stable in the back or drop more to get the car to rotate to your liking.

 

As far as driving technique you're likely doing 2 things, carrying too much speed into the corner and too much steering input.

SLOW IN FAST OUT.
First priority should be to learn to get your braking done before you turn in, at this point learning to trail brake properly would be counter productive. Correct braking technique will make it feel like you're going too slow into the corner, this is OK. Focus on being able to make your line and doing it right, faster entry speeds will come with time and comfort.

The second thing is improving your steering input. Even if you're coming into the corner at the appropriate speed bad steering input will cause understeer.

The key to this is hand dicipline. If you're doing a tight autocross/gymkhana type course you're going to need to rotate the wheel 180+ degrees alot and if that happens in a jerky uncontrolled manner you're going to lose the front tires and alot of time.

My perfered technique is the shuffle technique. For this start your hands at 9 and 3, the trick is not to cross your arms. so for a 90deg right, you'd want to set up your right hand on top of the wheel and turn in, and as you turn the wheel shuffle your left hand to the left so that when your right hand gets to 3 your left hand is at 9 etc, basically shuffle your hands so that they stay roughly 180 degrees opposed.

This will help keep your inputs measured and controlled so that you can turn in smoothly and not jerk the wheel which upsets the tires and suspension. Practice it every day as you drive and you'll see how much more sensitive your steering inputs can be and how little you really need to steer to get the car doing what you want.

Finally, the hardest thing is to UNWIND THE WHEEL. When you begin to mildly understeer you've overtaxed the slip angle of the front tires and this needs to be corrected. The method is simply counter intuitive, you need to unwind lock and lower the steering angle in order to reduce slip angle. This will get the tires gripping and then you can steer again. Avoid getting back on the brakes if you're not in immediate danger of going off course, if you get on them too hard you'll just overtax the tires again. Let the car roll for a second and slow enough so you can get back on line.

You'll be surprised just how much proper technique will fix your lap times. Slow it down a bit to go faster. The fastest drivers look like they're taking a nap at the wheel vs new drivers who look like they're having a seizure Practice lots and good luck!

P.S. Left foot braking won't help you too much at this stage, it's a more subtle technique. As you get better at finding your braking points and the front end grip of your car you'll start trail braking into the corners on your own, you don't need to think about it at this point.

 

Great advice SDCIVIC!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by X12 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great advice SDCIVIC!</TD></TR></TABLE>

im going to apply all of that.

 

with all those JDM names in ur sig theres NO WAY your car can understeer. Your not controlling ur car right. Get some rides with some of the expirienced drivers and you'll learn alot. Most likely your going in too fast and FWD cars tend to understeer if you try to accel.

 

I know im going in WAY to fast. I was doing that because thats what the other people were telling me to do...with the left foot braking. hit the corner fast, downshift and hit the brake. I know my car is set-up for some fast times, just need to learn how to drive it, thats why im asking the people who have been doing this for some time....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by junkyard racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know im going in WAY to fast. I was doing that because thats what the other people were telling me to do...with the left foot braking. hit the corner fast, downshift and hit the brake. I know my car is set-up for some fast times, just need to learn how to drive it, thats why im asking the people who have been doing this for some time.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Concentrate on what sdcivic549 posted. Also, there is really no need to downshift on most any autocross course... you can leave it in second gear even with stock powered Integras and civics. If you can attend a few local novice schools or an evolution autocross school that would help you get a lot of good driving experience and feedback from really good drivers!

Main thing with FWD is to go slowly enough into the turn then accelerate out of the turn. Come in too fast and you'll be plowing wide. Steering input also needs to be both fast and smooth at the same time; neither 'slow' nor 'jerky' with work well. Proper braking is also key - braking is to slow the car down for proper corner entry speed and it also transfers the weight to the front tires to help with turn-in. Proper steering and braking goes a long way to maximizing the cars cornering ability and minimizing understeer.

 

Yeah Vracer hit a point I missed. At this point too much power might be your enemy. just leave the car in 2nd, unless you're seriously bouncing off the limiter even if the turn is slow and you feel like you're bogging, there's more important stuff like your line and braking to concentrate on. That shift into first isn't going to do much for you right now.

 

Gotcha. thanks!

 

Also leaving it in 1st upsets the balance of the car more than leaving it in 2nd. Leaving it in 2nd is actually (in most cases) faster than 1st because when you nail the gas all the weight transfers off the front tires more harshly than nailing the gas in 2nd.

Also I've seen too many people use the engine to slow themselves down OR even coast while in 1st than using 2nd. You can only go faster if you are on the accelerator longer.

 

Great advice here. Thanks guys. I've done 4 events now and learned a lot already. I'm still suffering from understeer (almost always because of coming into the turn too fast) and like it was described, 'seizure-like' driving.

I have a TSX motor which is just way too much for the tight winds on an autox to go all out on...especially with my street tires.

Based on what I've read, I'm thinking I may even leave it in 3rd gear since stepping anymore than 1/2 way on the throttle just ends up spinning tires....or maybe I should leave it in second and learn proper throttle control?

I have much to learn still...

 

Hehe, leave it in second and learn throttle control.

One way that I like to teach throttle control is to have the student drive around barefoot. Despite all these "throttle by wire" cars coming out these days, there is such a thing as throttle feel.

Annother thing that will help cure an overuse of throttle is actually to change your seating position. Get closer to the wheel, and sit quite upright. This will relax your legs and more importantly your arms. Additionally you should NOT wrap your thumbs around the wheel. Alot of students get this death grip on the wheel due to their arms being tense from holding them up and of course nerves. When you grip the wheel, grip it with your palms and fingertips with your thumb alongside your index finger rather than under the wheel. It really doesn't take much effort to steer a car, even without PS, most people use way too much muscle.

 

Yup learn throttle control. Very very important. Alot of novices that I have teach only know the gas pedal as an on/off switch. Learn to use it like a dimmer switch. Novices usually are STOMPING on the gas or off the gas - they don't know the in between 5%, 10% even 7.5%.

It's a learned feeling knowing how much gas to add or how much to let off. That is why it's good to have the windows down cause the tires will talk to you. Also might help you to buy some thin sole shoes like wrestling shoes. I got mine for $10 at Sports Authority. And as he said try to stay relaxed. Move the seat up so your wrists are on top of the steering wheel. Your seat back should be straight up and down as much as you can fit without hitting your head on the ceiling.

 

Awesome. Thanks for the replies! Will try that out this sunday. It's an enduro so I better learn quick during the laps. haha

I can't believe I didn't get into autox sooner. I feel like I've waisted so many years that I could've been honing my skills.

 

Quick question. I was thinking about the throttle and wondering....when coming out of a tight turn and ahead is a straight away, do you still need to feather it into WOT or is it better to gradually bring it to WOT?

 

You always want to bring the throttle up as quickly as grip allows. Track conditions and how tight of a line you take through the corners will determine how quickly you can throttle up without losing traction. Approached the same way as steering: fast and smooth inputs (how fast depends on how much grip is available).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2000Accord5sp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It's an enduro so I better learn quick during the laps. haha</TD></TR></TABLE>

What do you mean by Enduro? Not sure I've heard that term related to autocross..

 

instead of 4 one lap timed runs, you get like 2 three lap timed runs or maybe 1 4 or 5 lap run

 

Things like a sustec rear adj sway bar, camber kits, and just messing w/ tire pressure can all help change from understeer to oversteer, but if this was your first event, then don't even worry about them. You need more seat time to improve technique and learn the feel of your car. Some great advice posted here. Here's my 2 cents;

FWD can be a real PITA. You are doing your steering, accerating and most of your braking with 2 wheels. Its like driving a damn Segway around the course. This means most of your control has to go through 2 wheels, making smooth throttle, brake, and steering very important. I like to start my first run slow and look for places in the course where I can push it harder next time. Once I'm at the edge of traction in those places then I look for other spots on the course I can go faster. I like to start slow and progressively add speed.

Now the secret for being smooth... Look way ahead (also called getting your vision up). The entry/exit speed and angle for one turn greatly affects how you go into the next turn, which affects the turn after that, and so on. Look two to three turns past the turn you are currently in. By the time you are in a turn you'd better have already figured out what you're doing - no need to keep looking at it. Looking further ahead will force you to mentally "connect" the turns into single path and you will plan your speed and angle at each turn to better set yourself up for the next turn. This will allow you to greatly reduce your steering input and, of course, understeer.


Modified by RPM_69 at 6:48 AM 9/7/2006

 

Correct, it's going to be one race with 4 laps for each participant.

Thanks for the info. I agree, I need to just learn to feel the car more. I already started to notice slight changes as I adjusted the speed and angles into turns. I need to really learn how my car reacts and also learn what my car is saying as i start understeering/oversteering/lose traction, amount of body roll, weight shift..etc. I think I'm still obvlivious to a lot of that due to the nervousness of just trying to finish the lap.

 

thanks again for all of the advice. I will try to remeber it all the next time I am on the track. A few friends and I are thinkin about renting a track this weekend just to play around, so I will try to apply of of this then. and of course the next race...

 

not to threadjack, but can someone explain to me what understeer feels like?

I just dont understand it, no matter how hard i try.