Well fella's as I have been promising for a while now I finally got my new brakes almost all the way on the car. I bought these brakes off of Mike aka "Migs" on H-T for a smokin deal and had them moddified by Dennis aka "Imola-red DC2" for clearance and fitment. They are not completely done yet, as the 5mm spacer I had was not enough so I have to order some new spacers, then re-bolt it up, bolt in the SS brake lines, bleed them and I'm ready to go...


A little info on the setup...


5x114.3 and won't fit under anything smaller than a 16" wheel, they also require the use of a 10mm spacer and extended lug studs. The caliper is a Brembo 4 piston unit off of the 04' TL sport package, and it uses apporiximetly a 12.5" rotor.

There are a few moddifications that need to be done to various parts of the knuckle/hub/brake assemblies to get everything to work.

First, the inner radius of the hub where the rotor sits must be machined slightly. There is a lip on the OEM ITR hub that must be machined flat so the there is a nice smooth contact area for the rotor and hub...


Once that is done you can have the extended studs installed...


The Caliper mating surface itself had to be shaved to get the propper pad/rotor clearance and still be able to bolt directly to the Knuckle...
I am not sure off the top of my head on the measurements but can check them up if anybody wants me to...



I also had to drill the caliper mounting hole on my knuckle out a little bit to accomidate the bigger caliper bolts that come standard on the TL. I had a nice stepped bit made for me that cut right through the knuckle like butter, and kept the hole straight in line with the previous hole...
I didn't happen to get a good picture of that but I'll check the size's and maybe I can re-inact the drilling for posterity...

After that throw the rotor and spacer on...

I don't use the rotor screws anymore...

Bolt the calipers on... Bolt on brakes lines... Bleed...


throw a wheel on there and your are good to go...


Any questions feel free to ask... I will try and update the thread this week with all the exact measurements, and maybe a few more pics...

One day when I get the car running I'll come back and post some driving reviews. But for now the car is in-operable so all I can say is they look good for now...


If only I could find that motor I have layin around...


The original Thread if anybody is interested...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1225742

 

are you using a 1" ABS MC and Booster?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xerox445 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">are you using a 1" ABS MC and Booster?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am using an ITR 1" MC and booster but I am not running ABS...

also using SS braided lines and ATE super Blue fluid

 

very nice!

 

 

here are a few pics from before when I had the OEM CTR/ITR stuff under the same wheels, that way you can really see the difference. Also one more of the new setup...

 

badass. too bad it isn't a direct bolt on. but props on the project. didn't the knuckle need machining so that the rotor would clear the inside diameter?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Airbag Club &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">badass. too bad it isn't a direct bolt on. but props on the project. didn't the knuckle need machining so that the rotor would clear the inside diameter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You mean machining the hub? the Rotor is clear all the way around

the knuckle did not need any machining (only drilling the caliper monting holes), the only reason it even came off the car was to get the hubs & bearings changed out...

 

oops thats what i meant.. machining the hub. i remember imola had to machine a few mm off the edge of the hub, because the inside of the rotor was hitting the hub, so it needed to be machined to clear..

 

lol Were the ITR brakes not enough braking force for ya?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol Were the ITR brakes not enough braking force for ya? </TD></TR></TABLE>

they worked great...

But with the new 250+hp K24 motor I'm puttin togther I figured maybe I could use a little more...

plus, 4 pistons &gt; 2 pistons / pad surface area / modulation

I think I am going to need to do some brake ducts now though...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

they worked great...

But with the new 250+hp K24 motor I'm puttin togther I figured maybe I could use a little more...

plus, 4 pistons &gt; 2 pistons / pad surface area / modulation

I think I am going to need to do some brake ducts now though...</TD></TR></TABLE>

What you're probably going to need is an adjustable brake prop valve. My friend has ITR brakes on his race hatch and it was too much for the car when we layed into it. It locked the rear wheels up way too fast. Of course this is a race only gutted car, but still. With those you wouldn't be able to brake at all without one on the track.

 

Jon V, glad you finished the project. I knew it could be done but didnt have the time or drive to finish it. I give you much respect as well as Dennis for completing the project that I didnt finish.

 

although credit for the innovation, but it seems like you're trying to ice skate uphill?

what's the benefit of the TL 4 piston caliper with 12" rotors, vs. say, like a stoptech kit? or even the wilwood kit (which is bolt on)?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">although credit for the innovation, but it seems like you're trying to ice skate uphill?

what's the benefit of the TL 4 piston caliper with 12" rotors, vs. say, like a stoptech kit? or even the wilwood kit (which is bolt on)?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Rules of OEM use parts, being different, making the improbable happen. It was probably a little bit cheaper too.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what's the benefit of the TL 4 piston caliper with 12" rotors, vs. say, like a stoptech kit? or even the wilwood kit (which is bolt on)?
</TD></TR></TABLE>


not sure i understand the ice skating up hill comment? I put on bigger brakes in preperation for a lot more power

It definetly was cheaper... and the rotors are closer to 12.5 if not bigger...

and why use an OEM Brembo caliper over a willwood or a stoptech kit, why not? what makes the Willwood stuff any better than the Brembo stuff? Plus these are the same calipers that come on the STI & EVO so finding good pads won't be an issue...

thanks again Migs for the killer deal

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I put on bigger brakes in preperation for a lot more power </TD></TR></TABLE>
I wasn't sure what race class this car is being built for,s o i can only assume it's a street car.

but, how does a 300hp street car stop any differently than a 100hp street car, assuming all else is equal?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It definetly was cheaper... and the rotors are closer to 12.5 if not bigger...</TD></TR></TABLE>

fastbrakes has their front and rear kit for $1450.... yeah, it's not 12.5, but you'll have a hard time finding the 12.2" kit overkill.

I don't know too many guys who find their braking inefficient with 11" rotors (which is $750 for front/rear).

so, definitely cheaper? seems pretty similar once you get the machine work done.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I wasn't sure what race class this car is being built for,s o i can only assume it's a street car.

but, how does a 300hp street car stop any differently than a 100hp street car, assuming all else is equal?
.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Honda-Tech and there typical, no it all, smart *** crowd...


The car is being built for Time-Trials where the limitaions are not as strict and you can build a car to your own specifications. I have thought about getting in to SCCA or NASA competition but am some what discouraged by the limitaions on the modifications and the classing. As a "Tuner" at heart I enjoy building a car as much as I do driving it...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fastbrakes has their front and rear kit for $1450.... yeah, it's not 12.5, but you'll have a hard time finding the 12.2" kit overkill.

I don't know too many guys who find their braking inefficient with 11" rotors (which is $750 for front/rear).

so, definitely cheaper? seems pretty similar once you get the machine work done.</TD></TR></TABLE>

As I told someone in another thread the whole package only cost me about $1000 after all was said and done. So yes definetly cheaper for "bigger" brakes...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I bought these brakes off of Mike aka "Migs" on H-T for a smokin deal and had them moddified by Dennis aka "Imola-red DC2" for clearance and fitment.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the quotes and prices but as you surely already noticed, I had the 5 lug on the car. Tracked it with an almost stock single cam, and overall drove the car to it's limitations. As I said I am making a huge power jump from a bolt on Y7 to a semi built K24. I feel very confident in my car and my driving, I also know I am going to be going a lot faster and for sake of catering to my driving style I opted to upgrade the brakes as I was upgrading the power output. Sorry I didn't post any qualifications in my original post, I forgot this was Honda-Tech and I just copied the post I made on K*0a.org...

Here is another pic for posterity

 

I think its a a kool setup. BUT...

1. If you can only run a 16+ inch wheel, which i think its going to hurt you overall and negate any positive effects of the larger brake setup.

2. Your adding ALOT of unsprung weight. The jump from a 9 or 10 inch setup to an 11 inch is alot more then most think. If I can find it, I weighed all three setups and if i remember correctly, there was like a 20 pound difference between the 9 inch setup and the 11 inch. This is another drawback to the OEM components, they are much heavier then the aftermarket kits. I can't even begin to imagine what that 12.5 inch setup weighs....

3. IMHO, if your out braking your 11.1 Inch setup on your car, you may need to reevaluate your confidence of your driving skill AND or run more aggressive pads, though I don't believe it to be the later.

Overall i think its a cool idea tho, and to you for making it work with OEM parts. I personally would have used a spacer INSIDE of the rotor hat to achieve the correct clearance, and not machine down the tabs on the knuckle that take alot of stress under braking.

 

I actually love my 16's and wouldn't want to go any smaller... that made it much easier, as long as it fit under my 16's which are actually really close...

I totally agree with you, the jump from the stock 10 inchers was a good bit of weight. I actually sold my OEM brake setup, trailing arms, knuckles and all to Rodney one of the more recognized auto cross names on the board... but the stock DX rotors were rather thin and I am not even sure if they had the cooling ducts in them. The ITR stuff was much bigger and beafier, the rotors being very solid thick ventelated rotors and the calipers of the same design and twice the size. The TL stuff is not exactly what I would call "stock" stuff, these "Brembo" calipers only come on the cars with the Sports package. I don't know how many TL's some of you boys see back in the boonies but I see a lof of them out here in So-Cal and I have only seen these brakes 2 or 3 times on the streets... I'm not exactly sure on the weight of the new calipers but the overall design and structure seems like a more weight efficient design.

I also never stated that I outbraked my 11.1" setup, I only stated that I felt I had pushed it to it's limits even with my single cam.

We also thought about using the spacer behind the rotor but that would have pushed the wheel out even further in order to clear the caliper... And you meant machining down the tab on the caliper where it mounts to the knuckle right? because I only opened the mounting holes in the knuckle up, the knuckles were not machined at all...

 

If you felt you had pushed it to the limits then you were either running the wrong pad or you don't know what the true limits are IMO.


Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC at 7:29 PM 8/31/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We also thought about using the spacer behind the rotor but that would have pushed the wheel out even further in order to clear the caliper... And you meant machining down the tab on the caliper where it mounts to the knuckle right? because I only opened the mounting holes in the knuckle up, the knuckles were not machined at all... </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you had put a spacer behind the rotor, you are correct, it would push the wheel further out. Which would just aid in the caliper clearance, it would allow you to run a smaller spacer on the outside of the rotor, and avoid machining all together. Ether way, removing material from the tabs or the caliper is going to weaken it.

 

It would not have helped caliper to wheel clearance at all...

also I have to admit I have not run my car with the absoultly most aggresive pad and tire setup posssible. But I do believe one of the few limitations for the time trial events that I will be participating in is that you must run DOT tires anyways. but I'll have to check on that...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It would not have helped caliper to wheel clearance at all...

also I have to admit I have not run my car with the absoultly most aggresive pad and tire setup posssible. But I do believe one of the few limitations for the time trial events that I will be participating in is that you must run DOT tires anyways. but I'll have to check on that...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Believe it or not, a spacer is a spacer. Anything on the face of the hub out is going to move the wheel further out and in addition making the overall track of the car wider. Therfore, yes it would helped the caliper to wheel clearance.

Point in fact, OEM 15" Blades will not clear ITR Calipers with no spacer behind/inside of the rotor. With the spacer, they fit fine.

Edit: The "caliper to wheel clearance" I am refering to is to the spokes/ inside face of the wheel.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honda-Tech and there typical, no it all, smart *** crowd... </TD></TR></TABLE>
their and know.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The car is being built for Time-Trials where the limitaions are not as strict and you can build a car to your own specifications. </TD></TR></TABLE>
NASA time trials?

or... TIME ATTACK!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As I told someone in another thread the whole package only cost me about $1000 after all was said and done. So yes definetly cheaper for "bigger" brakes...</TD></TR></TABLE>
not really when you have to add in the rear brakes to have the system remotely balanced.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tracked it with an almost stock single cam, and overall drove the car to it's limitations.</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you attend a HC race and can match the times of H6, then i might be so inclined to say that you have an idea of how to drive.
If you can match H4... or do better, then i might even say you might be a decent driver....


but, if you aren't... you aren't pushing your car to the limits... those guys are on the edge most of the track

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I opted to upgrade the brakes as I was upgrading the power output. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't take my critism as bashing your opinion... your car, your money. but don't have these false hopes that you will be magically faster cause of said brakes.

see, i guess i'm lost in that mentality. I went from 100whp to 220whp... i'm still running 10" brakes... and oddly enough, my 220whp engine stops the car the same way the 100whp did

also, the 16s do raise important concerns:
- tire sizes suck in 16" sizes.
- 16" wheels are heavier than 15s"
- 16" tires cost more
- etc, etc, etc.