So my suspension setup consisted of tokico blues with progress springs. The progress springs claim a 2" drop. It was a decient setup & i had it like that for just over 2 years.

Lately my Si has been bottoming out (meaning hitting the bump stops) up front over relativly small bumps, especially if cornering. It never was like that before so i figured the shock were going out. However when i took them off they seemed to be in decient shape.

So i bought new koni yellows. I installed them with my progress springs. Ride feels better, but not as good as i expected. I started out at full soft setting & have worked up to where right now i have the koni's set at one full turn from full soft. Which is also half way to full stiff. So there right in the middle.

Problem is that i still am bottoming out up front over the exact same bumps as before, and again especially while cornering. Its not light either, it hits pretty hard on the bump stops.

Also the bump stops have been cut in half, the first time the springs were installed w/ the tokico shocks, as per progress' instructions. So its not like i have huge bump stops that are limiting my shock travel.

All i can think is to continue making the koni's stiffer, but from what i've felt so far i dont think it will help. They stiffen the ride up as i turn them firmer, but as soon as i hit a mild bump, they just bottom out.

Maybe i'm just too picky now becasue my hatch is on omin coilovers & it is just so much better. I have them set at the softest setting & the car is lowered much more then my Si & i have yet to get them to bottom out, even over huge bumps. Of course they have very stiff spring rates though.

So is what im experiencing with my Si normal, or could something else be causing the problem. Thanks

 

im going to stay with fact.

koni yellows do not adjust compression damping. whatever they valved it at, pretty much stays the same throughout the adjustment range. only rebound damping is adjusted.

when you go over a bump, the first response is the wheel being forced upwards, in compression. so no surprise youre not getting much affect in changing whether you bottoming out.

however, you should feel the benefits of a better controlled ride on the latter half of the wheel stroke and in general.

but then, really, if youre bottoming out... your springs need to go or something else.

 

yea, ur right, i didn't even really think about that. yes, the ride feels more in control, just not as good as expected. but they've only been on a day, so i still need to play with the setting a bit.

so my understanding then would be that i need springs with stiffer rates, those would risist the bottoming out better. I know the progress springs have relativly soft rates, not too soft though, but my cars not slammed or anything, so i just found it odd that it keeps bottoming out.

thanks

 

Bottoming out doesn't really have much to do with shocks. It just means you are too low for the amount of compression travel & spring rate. To fix the problem you will have to do one of the following:

- Stiffer spirngs
- Raise ride height
- Increase shock compression travel

Since you have lowering springs, none of the options are easily within your grasp. Perhaps some Ground-Control coilovers (w/ Koni specific sleevs of course) are in order.

 

Or... you could use something like 94eg! has as his avatar - GC elongated tophat (shock mount). You can do the same with stock tophats with a section of pipe, cutting & welding. You could have also dropped the tokicos lower in the front fork, I gained 1.5" by doing that and any syspension angle always keeps it 1"+ from the axle (EF sedan).

Besides that, most non-adjustable springs tend to be softer than coil-overs, and a bigger drop means more chance of bottoming out. The deal between your Si and hatch are weight and shocks that allow for more travel. Tokicos/Konis aren't meant for more than a 1.5" drop w/modifications.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or... you could use something like 94eg! has as his avatar - GC elongated tophat (shock mount). You can do the same with stock tophats with a section of pipe, cutting & welding. You could have also dropped the tokicos lower in the front fork, I gained 1.5" by doing that and any syspension angle always keeps it 1"+ from the axle (EF sedan).</TD></TR></TABLE>

You cannot lower the shock into the fork when using regular lowering springs. If you did, it will only further lower the car & not increase the compression travel...

Also, GC top hats don't work with OEM or OEM-style lowering springs. The spring must have a 2.5" inner diameter to be compatible. Lengthening the stock top-hats is a good ideal, but you must make sure to use tubing that will allow the shock to fit up inside. Otherwise you shock will just smash into the upper-mount without the bump-stop there to protect it. Also keep in mind that the shock does NOT stay perpendicular to the upper mount. The bushings inside allow the shock to pivot from side to side as the LCA moves through it's arc of motion. Any custom upper mount must be made & tested throughout the entire range of motion of the suspension before you actually drive on it. It's easy to do by just removing the spring & bump-stop. Then loosen all the suspension bolts and swing the entire hub up & down to see if the shock scrapes the top-hat...

 

i would have suggested GC extended top hats, but he has regular springs. its hard to say how much the spring will need to be preloaded in order to fit together, and then if the ride height will even out since theres no other adjustment.

 

Ok, so it looks like the only real option right now is to either...

1. Get GC coilovers, because i can set the ride height & get stiffer spring rates.

2. Get other lowering springs that have stiffer rates, although the only ones seem to be fairly stiffer are either neuspeed race or H&R race. But those drop the car much more too, so it will just be sitting that much closer to the bump stop. Although i could raise them a little with the upper perch on the konis.

Thanks for the help guys.

One other question. My omnis are the 10k/8k rates and my progress are susposedly 320F/200R. Anyone know how to convert the omni rates so that they are the same measurement as the progress rates or vice versa (so i can compare the two).

 

Multiply by 55.88 to convert from kg/mm to lbs/in so:

10 = 558.8
8 = 447

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by strsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although i could raise them a little with the upper perch on the konis.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The Koni shocks only have a "raised" perch setting in the rear. The fronts only have two settings: "normal" & "lowered"...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Furyof4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Multiply by 55.88 to convert from kg/mm to lbs/in so:

10 = 558.8
8 = 447</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The Koni shocks only have a "raised" perch setting in the rear. The fronts only have two settings: "normal" & "lowerd"... </TD></TR></TABLE>
yea, forgot about that

 

So i guess it will most likely be GC's then. The only other real option i'm seeing is maybe omni slip over coils because they're about half the price, but i need to search more about them. Everyone suggests GC's so they're probably much better designed.

 

Well upon more searching i've definatly decided on GC's.

I heard that their standare kit is something like 350/250 rates. Which isn't much stiffer then my progess springs. So i guess i'd have to order custom ones.

My omni's are 10k/8k. I love the way they handle, but its a little stiff for me. So I was thinking of getting the GC's in something like 8k/6k. Thats probably decient I would think, or maybe a little stiffer in the back?
Basically this car is just street driven, never auto-x, never road course, although i'd like to get into that someday (but i'd probably use the hatch for that).
So i just want some rate for i guess aggressive street handling without being too harsh as its not a track car. That's why i didn't think i would need stiffer rear rates like lots do for auto-x.


Modified by strsi at 12:31 AM 8/26/2006


Modified by strsi at 12:34 AM 8/26/2006

 

To put this into prospective for you...

I have 400f/250r and I keep my car lowered about 2.5" all the time & have no problems with bottoming out. I also use GC upper mounts on the front end. After purchasing them I found that the shock-fork trick is just as good though. If you do the shock-fork trick on the front end of the car, you will have NO problems with bottoming out.

Keep in mind that front camber kits severely reduce the clearance between the front UCA & the chassis. This will cause bottoming out no matter what you do. The funny thing is that even though I'm lowered 2.5" with NO camber adjustments, I only have -1.5* of camber on the front end, and 1* in the rear. This is great for performance driving. The EG/DC suspension kicks ***...

 

Did i just get a bad batch, or does koni do a horrible job of packaging their products?

The bags that contain all the hardware were tot ally sealed in the box, so i know it wasn't tampered with.

I was missing 2 washers, 1 from the front set & 1 from the rear. I was able to solve both of those problems by just drilling the hole in the stock washers a little larger.

But my other issue is that i was also missing 1 nut. The package for the rear shocks only had 3 nuts in it. So 1 shock doesn't have the second nut on it for added security.

I though those nuts were 12mm but apparently not. Cuz i went by home depot today & bought 1 of every style of nut that was close, including 12mm, 7/16course, 7/16fine, 5/8, 3/8 and not one of those fit. 12mm felt the closest but it wouldn't thread properly.

So any one know what size the nut is, and where i could buy one thats size, as i now know home depot doesn't sell it.

Thanks

 

Just contact Koni & they will get you all the missing parts right away. CRX Lee is one of the reps here on H-T, so you could try PM'ing him, but if he's out on buisness it could be a while. Just contact Koni North America & they will take good care of you...

PS: There are different thread pitchs for 12mm hardware. You should just bring one of the nuts in with you next time...

 

Yea i did bring one of the nuts with me. Nothing there seemed exactly the same, but i figured i'd buy a few cuz one must work.

Anyways, i went to lowes later today & found nothing also. But at least they had this older guy working there who knew a lot. He told me that my nut was a 12mm but it was a different thread pitch. Standard is 12mm x 1.75 & that is all Lowes & Home Depot carry.

He told me though that a smaller local hardware store had a much better selection of metric nuts & bolts. Went there and found it. There was 12mm x 1.75, 1.50, 1.25, 1.00. I just bought 1 of each, except 1.75 since I already got that at home depot.

Anyways, one of those fit great. i don't know which size it was, since there are no identifying marks. But it worked.

Thanks for the help though.

 

12x1.25

sorry, should have told you before. its in the helms manual too. but most threads are 1.25 pitch.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The funny thing is that even though I'm lowered 2.5" with NO camber adjustments, I only have -1.5* of camber on the front end, and 1* in the rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Man. I don't mean to call you out, but that just doesn't add up. I've measured and I've read from other people who have measured. I've had retail alignments come out very close to my numbers. When you drop a 92-95 Civic or 94-01 Integra, the camber on the front end is very close to 1:1. 1 inch drop = 1 degree negative camber. 2.5 inch drop is over 2.5 degrees negative camber, and slightly less on the rear. Enough that random people on the street will ask you what's wrong with your crooked wheels. I'm tempted to drop my car and take pictures of the measurements right now but I don't feel like ******* with the alignment for an hour trying to get it just right again. So what else do you have that's affecting your numbers?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have 400f/250r and I keep my car lowered about 2.5" all the time & have no problems with bottoming out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bottoming out wouldn't be your major problem with that setup. I hope you don't mean to imply that you drive on the street like that. Where do you live? I'm jealous of your perfectly newly paved streets. In the real world, someone with a setup like that would have to come to a nearly complete stop for every dip, speed bump, driveway, and would have to constantly search the road ahead for the slightest pothole. Shredded pieces of truck tire would be a major hazard. No, you probably wouldn't bottom out, but your head is definately going to hit the headliner at some point.

Sorry, I know my comments read as ridicule, but really it's just dismay. Is it bad advice with good intentions?

 

Well I totally understand. I live in Las Vegas where we have what seems like a 12-trillion dollar spending budget for roads every year. For the most part they are quite new because most of the city is less than 15 years old. I used to keep the car lowered almost 3" but I found that it was too harsh & my aftermarket exhaust would scrape on every speed bump. Since bringing it up to -2.5" the car is much more civil & has no problems with getting airborne. I did do that once on the freeway, but the city has since fixed that expansion joint. I have made a couple trips to So-Cal in it too & never had any problems...

I'll have to double check my alignment measurements when I get home this evening & see if those numbers I quoted are accurate. I just got the laser alignment at Sears about 1 month ago, so it's pretty fresh in my mind. I do remember the camber being just barely out of OEM spec for both the front & rear of the car. I remember the tech commenting on how it was still pretty close.

Also my ride height reduction measurement of -2.5" is only based on a comparison of a Civic EX at stock height vs. my Civic CX at lowered height. I'm not exactly sure if the EX normally rides higher than a stock CX making my numbers inaccurate or what. My car has been lowered for about 6 years now, so I don't really have any baseline measurements.

As for the setup it's just Koni Sport shocks/GC coil-overs/GC upper mounts/Integra Rear suspension/Integra front LCAs/Integra sway-bars. Everything else is stock. The only sees street driving..

 

Okay, after double checking it seems I was in fact mistaken. My memory sucks when it comes to numbers...

My camber is as follows:
LF= -2*
RF= -2.5*

LR= -1.1*
RR= -1.5*

Sorry for any missinformation...

 

I got a question about the camber.

On my last setup my rear camber was -1.3 on both sides. it was done with the washer trick, 2 washer on each bolt.

Then i installed the konis & while i was at it i added 1 additional washer on each bolt (3 total now) because i wanted a little less rear camber.

It definatly looks like there is less camber on each side because my rear tires are much closer now to touching the inside of the fenders.

i also measured the car before & after the konis. ride height is exactly the same as before.

Then i go for an alignment. Front camber is at -1.4L, -1.6R which what i like.

However my rear camber which before was -1.3, is now shown as -.9R (which is what i expected with the added washer). But the other side is -1.4L. So my question is how is this possible. I added an extra washer & camber definatly looks less then before. But its showing up as more negative then before. Is it possible that the computer alignment misread this or the operator installed the sensor wrong which gave a misreading?

 

I got 550f/500r. Feels pretty good. Tested it out a bit yesterday, got a bit of oversteer on one twistie, but caught it back, nothing too major. Feels a bit tighter. Although since these cars are practically made out of tin, when you hit a bump feels like the suspension or car is about to fall apart. Kind of sucks, but oh well. A bit bouncytoo. Mostly the rear because i guess of the high spring rates in the rear, and how the car is so much lighter back there too. Car definitely turns better, but doesn't have that feel on the steering wheel too much, I guess maybe I just like cars without power steering better for the feel, feels like your gripped better on the ground.

I'm still on stock steelies, on some all season no name tires. I think my next mod is a sway bar for the rear, I want this car to feel way tighter.

I have about a finger gap in the front, and about 2-1/4 gap in the rear. I still haven't played with the koni's yet, and the settings, so I'll try it soon. I'm runnning on 195/60/14 size tires, on 550f/500r springs. My school has serious speed bumps, and I don't bottom out, at least I don't think I do. Rear bounces though because like mentioned such high spring rate in the rear.

I'm thinking ITR rear sway, followed by a front strut bar next.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D-t &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm still on stock steelies, on some all season no name tires. I think my next mod is a sway bar for the rear, I want this car to feel way tighter.

I'm thinking ITR rear sway, followed by a front strut bar next. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The car won't «feel tighter». It'll feel loose. There will be too much rotation for a street use, espacially using no name crappy tires.

You should get tires before getting any kind of suspension modification. This could be dangerous for you.

 

So today i was poking around at my suspension. While doing this i noticed that as the car sits at its typical ride height, the top 4 coils (if not a few more) of the front springs are actually totally compressed. I mean there is no room at all inbetween them, they are all sitting on top of eachother with no space at all inbetween them.

I cant imagine this is normal. this would also make sence about why i bottom out a lot. Obviously any bump will compress the spring & at this point half of the spring is already fully compressed at ride height. So it may not be that I'm hitting the bump stops, it might actually be that my springs are becoming fully compressed over bumps.

This cant be right. I know everything is installed correctly & i would expect something like this from ebay springs, but progress is a decient company so i wouldn't expect it from them. So i guess this could be the source of my problem?