Quick question, should I buy a miata, RX7, as a road racer or an EF/EG Hatch.? I drive a 99 Si which i'm autocrossing now.. I love honda's but I think FWD is limiting my driver skill... but I seriously want to get into the track by next year so basicly FWD or RWD.. pro's and con's..

 

I'm on a budget though... around 9k to prep and build the car. Not looking at modding the engine too much either. Not a fan of BMW lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16_racer87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.......... I think FWD is limiting my driver skill...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why do you say that? you can become a world class drvier in FWD just as easy as RWD. Unless you want to drift


Modified by ekim952522000 at 3:18 PM 8/21/2006

 

RWD is nice, but FWD is just as nice and much cheaper to race usually. I used to think that FWD was a handycap based on the first Integra I had ( '90 GS), but I didn't have it handling as good as it could have. I have autocrossed and tracked mainly RWD vehicles (Tacoma extended cab and V6 Camaro) and have most recently autocrossed my brothers '90 Integra RS along with taking it to a local SCCA autocross school. FWD is not such a handycap as I used to believe... in fact the Integra is so fun and responsive to drive that I wouldn't mind going back to FWD one bit; I am going back to a FWD vehicle actually once I sell the Camaro! The main difference between FWD and RWD is corner entry. It's more critical to get corner entry right with a FWD car, and getting it right meaning slowing down earlier than you would with RWD. This also means you get on the gas earlier if you did everything right. The only other real noticable difference is slight corner exit understeer verses slight corner exit oversteer. But the understeer is really so slight with our '90 RS that it's more of a very slight drift towards the outside edge of the corner - not bad at all considering the stock open-differential. The '90 RS is every bit as fast as the Camaro (EP) on course and more fun to throw around to me. It even launches harder off the line than the Camaro and can stay with the camaro to the 1/8th mile then falls slightly behind in the 1/4 mile (15.6 for Camaro Verses 15.7 for the Integra) - not bad for modified stock intake and modified stock exhaust with autocross suspension settings. So from a handling point I don't see real disadvantages with a properly setup FWD car over a RWD car... just differences in driving techniques.

The only thing I don't like about FWD is replacing the CV shafts. I replaced my '90 GS CV shafts three times during her ownership. So far with this '90 RS the first set of CV shafts seem to be doing real well (went ahead and paid the money to get Raxles CV shafts). Very pleased with the Raxles shafts!

Are you talking about racing or trackdays/HPDE/time trials though. Cause if you are talking about trackdays/HPDE/Time-trials I do have a nice "just add gas" track car that is available for $5k would be a great introduction to RWD - ready to run down your average Lotus Elise and Z06 corvette driver on track. It's the first car in my signature below...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16_racer87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm on a budget though... around 9k to prep and build the car. Not looking at modding the engine too much either. Not a fan of BMW lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

sounds like a perfect Spec Miata candidate.

of course, Im biased

personally I find a balanced rwd car to be much more enjoyable to drive on track than a nose heavy fwd car. You can still make a fwd handle well make no mistake, but a rwd car just has a much better feel IMO. Hard to put into words.

 

So are you saying I don't need experince driving RWD cars? Why are all race cars RWD then? It's rare too see FWD cars running. Look my Dream is F1 but reality checks in and I know I will never make it their.

 

RWD has physics going for it while FWD has physics going against it... weight transfer to drive wheels and the cornering sequence is why RWD is more preferable.

Im just saying that our FWD '90 Integra RS is just as quick as my '98 RWD Camaro around an autocross course and probably roadcourse, plus it's cheaper to run.

Evan55, this integra has a slight oversteer problem on corner entry... the first autocross run I did in it I DNF'd because I wasn't expecting it to turn in so fast and it turned in so much I ended up on the wrong side of a cone before the last slolam section. Then under maximum braking the tail kicks out into a 90 degree drift/slide if conditions are right (offcamber with gravel)... Yahooo! I kind of like it, but man you have to watch the braking zones and be prepared to countersteer!

 

The differences in the FWD vs. RWD discussion don't really become a huge, big deal until you've got enough power to spin the tires at corner exit on most corners of most tracks. Miatas, RX-7s and 944s don't really fall into that category.

If you are looking for the best tool to use as a stepping stone into a formula car or other "real" race car, get a shifter cart.

If you want a reliable, affordable first time race car, you'd be hard pressed to find a more suitable car than an EF/EG or Integra platform.

Thawley

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16_racer87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So are you saying I don't need experince driving RWD cars? Why are all race cars RWD then? It's rare too see FWD cars running. Look my Dream is F1 but reality checks in and I know I will never make it their.</TD></TR></TABLE>


If you buy a Miata, put the top down and drive in the rain you will get your feet wet.


The fundimentals of driving a FWD vs RWD are basically the same. You adjust your driving to suit each platform slightly. I was worried that what I'd learned in Racing School wouldn't apply to a 100 HP FWD since we drove C5 Vettes. I talked to one of the instructors and he assured me that every fundimental skill we learned in the school will be the same as in my FWD car. You just have to slightly adjust the driving style between the two. He actually raced everything from Civics to off-road trucks.

If you're interested in going into F1 you need a time machine to go back to when you were 6 and start Karting. Oh and it having some winning lotto numbers from that year won't hurt either.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The differences in the FWD vs. RWD discussion don't really become a huge, big deal until you've got enough power to spin the tires at corner exit on most corners of most tracks. Miatas, RX-7s and 944s don't really fall into that category.

If you are looking for the best tool to use as a stepping stone into a formula car or other "real" race car, get a shifter cart.

If you want a reliable, affordable first time race car, you'd be hard pressed to find a more suitable car than an EF/EG or Integra platform.

Thawley</TD></TR></TABLE>


Nailed it.

Don't get caught up in it, the RWD vs FWD debate, its just useless and funny to those that know better.

I have in one day, competed in both a 600hp RWD GT car, and 125 hp Civic, you know what I did different? Not much.

Its a bit of a different thing with a FAST, well set up FWD race car that goes in sideways and comes out straight, vs a rwd that goes in straight and comes out sideways!
Anyway, you have a couple things that are the same, pedals and a steering wheel. If you are, or become a decent driver, you will figure out what needs to be done to get the maximum out of both. Its not a big deal, and as Thawley said, if you running an IT style car, (relatively low HP) there is almost nothing different.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The differences in the FWD vs. RWD discussion don't really become a huge, big deal until you've got enough power to spin the tires at corner exit on most corners of most tracks. Miatas, RX-7s and 944s don't really fall into that category.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
silly little fwd driver The most important aspect of a rwd car is the 50/50 balance and how the weight transfers. The balance of a car affects how it slides, how and where the weight shifts, how the tires and brakes wear, how it turns in and how it corners. Whether or not you can spin the tires doesnt make a difference, because you shouldnt be spinning them anyway.

 

I would start by deciding which series in your area offers the best competition. Then
choose a chassis. It won't be any fun to be the only Spec E30 (or whatever class) in the race,
and if you have other fast guys to race with, you'll learn more sooner.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evan55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The most important aspect of a rwd car is the 50/50 balance and how the weight transfers. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I got news for you big-guy, ALL cars with a 50/50 balance transfer weight the same way, not just RWD cars. And not all RWD cars are 50/50. In fact, I'd bet RWD racers with 50/50 are a minority in most paddocks. Think Mustang, Camaro, Factory-Fives, all rear engined Porsches... All are RWD and NONE handle remotely similar to your 50/50 Miata.

As the GT1 driver above said...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Don't get caught up in it, the RWD vs FWD debate, its just useless and funny to those that know better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16_racer87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Quick question, should I buy a miata, RX7, as a road racer or an EF/EG Hatch.? I drive a 99 Si which i'm autocrossing now.. I love honda's but I think FWD is limiting my driver skill... but I seriously want to get into the track by next year so basicly FWD or RWD.. pro's and con's..</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can give you my experience.
I started with autoxing a FWD car. I immediately started HPDE with a M-RWD car
(MR2 to be exact) which is probably the hardest thing to drive fast for a newbie.
Did I learn a lot by making the switch? Did I have a lot to learn regardless
of the switch? Yes and Yes.

It's important to change perspective regularly to recognize areas of improvement.
But at this point, it's probably too early for you (unless you feel like you're
not "getting FWD" and you need a break from it)

If you haven't done any HPDE, I'd stick with what you already have paid for.
Track it a few times get over the learning curve. once you get comfortable and
have the itch to go faster, then it's time to start thinking about karting or a fast
HPDE machine. or if w2w calls...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I got news for you big-guy, ALL cars with a 50/50 balance transfer weight the same way, not just RWD cars. And not all RWD cars are 50/50. In fact, I'd bet RWD racers with 50/50 are a minority in most paddocks. Think Mustang, Camaro, Factory-Fives, all rear engined Porsches... All are RWD and NONE handle remotely similar to your 50/50 Miata.

As the GT1 driver above said...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks cap'n, but the OP didnt say a thing about mustangs and camaros. Miata and Rx7, (with mention of BMWs) which do have excellent balance. And regardless of your lame attempt at nitpicking, RWD as a rule do have much better balance than a transverse engine FWD car. Bottom line, "RWD doesnt matter unless you spin the tires" is some major ignorant **** that couldnt be more wrong.

 

I think people think way too much about the differences to be honest.

When on the limit, with the car sliding the motions you make to combat it all are going to be exactly the same, the only difference typically is what part of the corner you are in.
A 50/50 low HP rwd car is going to be easier to drive than a properly set up FWD on the limit, so I sure wouldn't worry about making the switch if you are going to be in an IT type car.
Its still apples to apples.

Most rwd cars that have any significant power will want more rear weight bias than 50%.
Trans-Am cars are regulated to 50/50 and its bad for them. We dial in 54% rear bias with our GT-1 car.

To the original poster, fwd is NOT in any way at all, limiting your skill. Just keep at it, you will get more skill with more experience, driving other cars will always help this, of course, but don't think you need to get a Miata or RX7 to improve your skill level.

 

no. if anything is limiting your skills, it is that you think the CAR is limiting your skills.

 

I remember when I was twenty-seven. I knew much more then than I do now. I was a much bigger ***** then, too.

Grow-up. Open your eyes. Consider the opinions and listen to the experiences of those who may have done a LOT more **** than you have. It's the cheapest way to learn. If you want to learn, that is...

Thawley

 

It really is little difference in driving a FWD or RWD.

I've raced everything from a spec miata, BMW, H1 Civic, to high powered Porsche and NSX.

sure, there will be slight adjustment to fit each characteristics of the car, but it will be very minor, and mostly not dictated by where the drive wheel is.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I remember when I was twenty-seven. I knew much more then than I do now. I was a much bigger ***** then, too.

Grow-up. Open your eyes. Consider the opinions and listen to the experiences of those who may have done a LOT more **** than you have. It's the cheapest way to learn. If you want to learn, that is...

Thawley

</TD></TR></TABLE>

that is funny, but now that I grow older, I can totally relate. I was like that when I was younger too. I think it is part of growing up.

You know what they say. Human can only learn from experience. It would be much cheaper and easier to learn from other people experience than yourself.


Modified by Andrie Hartanto at 11:20 AM 8/22/2006

 

I could be wrong but it reads as if Evan was saying that it's important to achieve as close to 50/50 in a RWD where it may not be as important in FWD. I don't think he's arguing that RWD are better at 50/50 than FWD but Thawley's pedestal is fairly amusing. How's the view from up there anyway? Can you see my house from there?

To the OP... you don't need to run RWD to become a skilled racer but pretty much everyone else has already told you this.

 

well thanks for the replies guys! I'm only 19 so I still got a long way to go in my racing career lol. For some reason I still think I got to drive a RWD car to the limit. So it's time for a new car! (whoot whoot) It's either going to be an S2000 or an RX8. With the money left over I'm going to build an Si hatch for the Honda Challange.. and run H4. To the guy who said to run HPDE in my si, I Don't want to risk crashing my DD.. (I only got liabilty insurance..) so that's a no, no, till I get another car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thawley's pedestal is fairly amusing. How's the view from up there anyway? Can you see my house from there?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I do my best to be entertaining...

Seriously, I hope I am not giving the impression that I think FWD is better. My point, along with Andrie and pmachan's, is that the difference really not that big a deal for road racing.

By the way, Apocalypse, looks like your roof could use a little work

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16_racer87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm on a budget though... around 9k to prep and build the car. Not looking at modding the engine too much either. Not a fan of BMW lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Buy a kart.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B16_racer87 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well thanks for the replies guys! I'm only 19 so I still got a long way to go in my racing career lol. For some reason I still think I got to drive a RWD car to the limit. So it's time for a new car! (whoot whoot) It's either going to be an S2000 or an RX8. With the money left over I'm going to build an Si hatch for the Honda Challange.. and run H4. To the guy who said to run HPDE in my si, I Don't want to risk crashing my DD.. (I only got liabilty insurance..) so that's a no, no, till I get another car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Unless you have at least $15k left over, don't build the car .. buy a used one. It's way cheaper to buy a used racecar. Even if there aren't any good H4 cars near you on the market right now, it usually doesn't take long for a good one to pop up. It's really a buyer's market right now. I am a little confused as to how you're going to go from a Civic Si to an S2k or RX-8 and have money left over, but I guess if you can make that work, then great. One thing that you should consider is that H4 cars are not the most comfortable to drive around on the street in, so unless you live really close to all of the tracks in your region, you might want to start thinking about a tow vehicle. Most of us tow our cars to the track.

- Scott

 

You may also want to note that the cheapest part of racing is usually buying the car. It's everything else that costs so much, so having a yearly budget in mind before buying a car is a good idea. I can offord an H4 car right now, but its the cost to run it that keeps me in HPDE.

Also, have you thought about renting a racecar for a race? You could try-before-buy that way. There are quite a few people who rent Spec Miaters as well as other types of cars. You could find that what you think you want (and are about to drop lots of cash into) isn't really what you want afterall.

I've thought about getting into a SCCA Pro7 lately because of the low costs and pretty good competition. I might rent one to see if I like it.