I have had my 97 Honda Accord Coupe since 2002 and since then I have put countless thousands of dollars into in hopes of making the badass little car I always thought it could be. (JDM H22, eibach sportlines, 17" racing harts, pspec short shifter. etc) I love it and it will always be my favorite car. However, the past two weeks I was given the oppurtunity to drive my girlfriends mini cooper for a couple weeks while she was out of town and I gotta say its stunning in every way. The steering and handling is incredibly direct and incredibly precise.... makes the accord feel like a mini van. The trim and finish and stereo system is great and I never seem to find anything I dont like about the car. Now I do know that to a degree I am comparing apples to oranges because of the very short wheel base and very light weight of the cooper. But I feel like Im wasting my time now especially after what happened next.
The transmission in the mini has been a bit funky ever since we purchased it and it finally went out and the BMW dealership(Baron by the way, great service, great people) gave me a 2006 330i as a loaner car. (yea I almost crapped my pants to) Simply put the 330i is everything I want in a car, ferocious power, astounding build quality, race car like handling, stunning looks and 4 doors and a big trunk. What more could you want. After driving these cars I honestly feel like my accord feels like a canal boat and I understand these cars are in completely different classes but I think i would be satisfied if I could find some way to sharpen up the accords steering, THERES ABSOLUTELY NO FEEDBACK, I always thought it was good until I drove these cars and to be honest, no its not good its awful. Main reason being the powersteering assists way too much and to get the wheel to turn at the same degree angle in the mini you have to turn the accords wheel way further. So do you guys think there is any way at all to make the steering more like that of the rsx, or mini or the bmw. Now I know it will never handle like those, i.e the long wheelbase but is there any way at all to make it feel good and feel better and most importantly make it so you dont have to turn the wheel as much. Thanks for listening any replies welcome.

 

I don't wanna poop on Accords...but my next car's gonna be an E36 M3. FWD can only be so fun.

 

check cost of owenrship on the BMW before you jump on one.
Edmunds.com has a great cost of ownership calculator.
it shows the 330i as costing 74 cents a mile to operate. and it shows depreciation on it being extremely high compared to say a honda....

 

1) Remove powersteering (there's a tut in the guide up top for ITRs but is similar for accords)
2) Different steering wheel? smaller steering wheel = less you have to turn it for the car to turn the same

I think both of those would help you get a bit more response outta it. What you have to realize though is kinda what you said, apples to oranges, your accord with even a ton of mods is never going to handle like a mini or bmw, or a car like that because it cant haha.

 

Great discussion...

PIAA, CASTROL, JACCS...they chose the accord because it handles poorly and has poor steering feedback and isnt a good chasis at all?
POOR RESPONSE MUFFINMAN!! POOR RESPONSE!!!
Granted we are talking sedans to Coupes...but the suspension is the same, double wishbone at each corner, pretty rigid chasis considering the trunk and lack of a HATCH. My car used to steer like crap, I hated how it would drive. I made a few choices. I bypassed my power steering at the Steering rack, I ran a larger rear sway, stiff coilovers, fiarly agressive drop, nice tires, 330mm Steering wheel, with a great seating position. My car rides like a DREAM! I am running an LSD and wider wheels than stock also. I love my car...and with the addition of NSX brakes she stops well and digs hard before corners and with the aid of the braces and coilovers she hugs turns and the steering is AMAZING

I have driven...
S14 on Tien HEs(sways, control arms, camber adj, tie rods, the works)
S13 Wtih Tanabes and AGXs
WRX with ProDrive Springs
WRX with Eibachs
STI with STock Suspension
Honda S2k w/ stock suspension
Honda S2k w/Springs/Koni Yellows
AE86 w/ T3 Coilovers, Cusco Sways...ect...
RSX(WORST driving experience of my life)
Mercedes C230 Hatch
Mercedes Slk230
BMW M3(e36)
BMW 318i
Civic EJ w/konis and H&R OEs
Accord CD5 w/ H&R Race w/GR2s
Audi A4 B5 1.8t Quattro
Audi A4 B6 1.8t FWD
CRX with H&R OEs and Konis
Civic EF on GCs and AGXs

I still think that besides the S2k/AE86, my car with its current mods has the best steering and suites my flavor of driving style...I LOVE how my car handles, steers, and drives overall.

If all you have is EIBACH sportlines, I suggest some shocks or some coilovers and maybe an upgrade on the rear sway. I love my PS delete...the car is much more responsive


Modified by xamraci at 7:26 AM 8/11/2006

 

Buy the BMW / MINI. But be warned: you either get a good one or a really really bad one.

That's how it works in the German world. It especially important to buy a car that has been maintained either by the dealer, a BMW specialist or a very very **** owner. They are much more finicky cars to maintain. However, having said that, if you get a good one, the maintenance costs are not nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Preventive maintenance is critical on them.

5/6spds will always depreciate less than slushboxes.
Cloth > Leather. (I wish my M3 had cloth)

They are awesome cars and at 11 years old, my m3 still has new 996 porsches and AMG benz's chasing me down PCH in Malibu. Also, new G35's die quick deaths. There is a HUGE BMW community of DIY'er's; m3's/3's are awesome rides in general.

About your accord: the only thing you can do is make sure all your bushings and shocks/struts are new and/or upgraded. But...realize it will never handle or 'feel' like the Beemer. When I'm out in my m3, I feel as if I'm riding a wild stallion; I have more torque in 5th gear than my accord has in 2nd. I still really enjoy my accord though....it has it's purpose and it does it well: w/ mods, the CD7 is a sporty comfortable well handling car that has good style, good fuel efficiency and reliable as hell.

 

The Accord was never a sports car, it a family sedan.

Comparing a BMW and a MINI is unfair. Compare your Accord to a car in its class such as a Camry and let us know ho you feel about your car afterwards

 

This is another reason I went with coilovers w/ matched springs & shocks on the Accord. And, at the same time, why i never ran an exhaust et al. It's a slower car in unboosted form. But handles relatively well......

I even back to running a stock paper filters given how poorly K&N type filters actually filter. I want my engine to goto 350k.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...1.htm

 

guys I really appreciate the response and I feel like you all know where Im coming from. Heres my full list of mods and you tell me what I should do next to get a better sports feel, Here we go with suspension first: eibach sportlines, kyb agx adjustables, 215/40/17 yokohama avs es100's on racing hart c5 evo's, engine: Freshly built jdm h22a (brand new honda crank and bearing, sleeved, forged eagle rods, type-s pistons, arp head studs, aem intake, magnaflow highflow cat,greddy header with 2.5 collector and apexi ws exhaust , chipped and tuned on chrome. Like I said before I have the pspec shifter which I love and helps give a good feel and as for the outside I just have jdm headlights, tint and all the stock lips painted white to match the car.

 

What psi are you running in your tires? how many total miles on the chassis?

With alot of miles, you could probably replace your ball joints for a greater 'feel'. Taking it a step further, you're rack & pinion might be worn down as well.

Basically, you could go all Energy Suspension type bushing for your end-links. You could also run the EX swaybar or go aftermarket sways. You could probably stand to flush your power steering fluid w/ some fresh honda-spec stuff (required). While you're doing that, you could replace the clutch line with a braided steel one for even more precise engagement fel.

The suspension stuff cna be expensive if you're having it done but the other stuff is relatively cheap and DIY-able.

 

I like my accord because it's cheap, cheap to fix, easy to fix, parts are plentiful and saves me on gas during my commute. They are fun to drive to a point, but it's definitly not a BMW or Ferrari at all. I know if I had a turbo on it or N20 it would be fun and fast, but I'm not going that route.

 

get some bettter suspension

 

I say keep your Accord as a daily and buy a new car I cannot compare my WRX (with full complete suspension upgrades) to my Accord in any shape or form.. the "Canal boat" reference is how the Accord feels in comparison to my WRX.. However, driving the Accord is very comfortable, easy and relaxed... when I need speed and tire ripping handling, I hop into the WRX (Which has a STi swap with a fat turbo) and it really makes me appreciate the WRX more. But I can't drive it everyday, it's far too stiff and requires too much effort to drive during the heavy traffic hours of the day.

Jay

 

When someone speaks of "feeling" the steering or the "feedback" generally the problem is one of 2 things. The kingpin offset/scrub or the amount of power steering. If you want a solution to your problem, be prepared to do some custom work. You can increase the scrub radius of your wheels by ordering custom ones with a different offset, but honestly the accord sedan wasn't made to be like a Mini, even changing the offset probably will be overcome by the crazy amounts of power steering assist.
I see two easy solutions (other than/in addition to) custom rims, goto an aftermarket steering rack or get a power steering pully "reducer" or both.

The smaller pully on the PS pump will help some with the overzealous power assist and if you want better steering ratio you can do a few things. If you feel like you don't need PS then you can try that but I'd find someone to talk to first about the cons of that, I haven't actually done it before.

The easiest way to fix the lock-lock problem will be to see if someone has an aftermarket gearset for you (or a replacement setup alltogethor), the second easiest being to take one from another honda and retrofit it, the last option being that you modify the tie rod mounts to mount closer to the "kingpin/caster line" (line of rotation). Although the latter will require confidence in your mecahnical ability, or money and faith in someone else's.
Im sure a smaller steering wheel will help with the feel, but it wont fix the problem of the excessive turns lock to lock.

HTH
Buzz1167

Edit: BTW large tires (in diameter) generally do NOT help with "feeling" the road. Since the kingpin line usually intersects the ground inside the track of the car, larger diameter tires actually hinder the feeling by reducing the scrub.

 

no doubt about the mini and 330 being incredible cars. i mean, c'mon they are BMWs. but the accord wasnt built to be in the same market as the 3-series or the mini. its a family econo car, or a sporty family car that doesnt sacrifice everyday practicality in the case of the new V6 6-spd.

but no, your safe, you'll still love accords. your just going through a phase of...automotive puberty as i like to call it. haha. where you start realsing there are other cars out there int he world. and one day, you will want to get into the other cars, and caress their gentials-err. i mean drive them. yea, the accord is no BMW, but for what it is its a awesome car. im a diehard enthusiast and lvoe all cars and the accord is still one of my fav. mainly because it was my first heh heh

 

sleeved h22 block to run type s pistons? why? stock sleeves are fine

since you went sleeved why didnt you go forged pistons?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xamraci &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great discussion...

PIAA, CASTROL, JACCS...they chose the accord because it handles poorly and has poor steering feedback and isnt a good chasis at all?
POOR RESPONSE MUFFINMAN!! POOR RESPONSE!!!
Granted we are talking sedans to Coupes...but the suspension is the same, double wishbone at each corner, pretty rigid chasis considering the trunk and lack of a HATCH. My car used to steer like crap, I hated how it would drive. I made a few choices. I bypassed my power steering at the Steering rack, I ran a larger rear sway, stiff coilovers, fiarly agressive drop, nice tires, 330mm Steering wheel, with a great seating position. My car rides like a DREAM! I am running an LSD and wider wheels than stock also. I love my car...and with the addition of NSX brakes she stops well and digs hard before corners and with the aid of the braces and coilovers she hugs turns and the steering is AMAZING

...

I still think that besides the S2k/AE86, my car with its current mods has the best steering and suites my flavor of driving style...I LOVE how my car handles, steers, and drives overall.

If all you have is EIBACH sportlines, I suggest some shocks or some coilovers and maybe an upgrade on the rear sway. I love my PS delete...the car is much more responsive


Modified by xamraci at 7:26 AM 8/11/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well put. I auto-x, and i own an AE-86 non-hatch and a 94 accord lx 4dr as my track cars which i do run on the street from time to time, but not for racing. AE-86s are unbelievable cars, but the accord has one of the most versatile frames you will ever run into, and countless in-production suspension mods for each. The only time I even use the 86 is on either tracks with lots of extreme turns or AE-86 challenges. The reason being that the accord flies with the H22 in it if you do a little work to the heads and get some ITB’s, and it has the traction to pull its self out of a turn because of what I was able to do with the suspension, and weight ratio. Taking off power steering will give you better feel at high speed driving, but it will not change steering ratio, that is determined by the teeth inside the rack. But why in the world would you want it shorter, a wider gearing would just make it to where you can not adjust in a turn as accurately! People spend thousands making racks with shorter gearing, and you want to make it bigger... I don’t understand that one. the further the wheel goes, the more control you have!
I race against M3s regularly, there fast, but there boats and they drift out on turns to early, i can hold my own with them on the strait away, but I dominate them in turns.
so as was previously stated
"JACCS...they chose the accord because it handles poorly and has poor steering feedback and is not a good chassis at all?"
And the definitive answer is... absolutely not, it is one of the top 5 most unbelievable chassis ever built

JACCS built that car by the way PIAA and Castrol were sponsers...

PS
No one even bothers bringing out minis to the track, atleast not for auto-x


Modified by Seeds at 2:51 PM 8/13/2006

 

i really like the compression of the type-s and the only reason it was sleeved was because the stock sleeves were shot and could not be salvaged.

 

ok that sounds pretty good, so far I am thinking a new steering wheel, rebush the entire car, smaller power steering pulley and it is a ex but most likely would benefit from new anti roll bars and cusco or maybe a neuspeed tower bar. Anything thing else?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Seeds &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I race against M3s regularly, there fast, but there boats and they drift out on turns to early, i can hold my own with them on the strait away, but I dominate them in turns.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I find that hard to believe unless your running against novice drivers on crappy rubber and stock suspensions. Then that's not a fair comparison.

E36 m3 is almost 100lbs less (@ 3075), has perfect 50/50 and is FR. Not to mention another 105 hp over a 94 Ex (stock for stock).

It was also Car & Driver's 1997 "Best Handling Car at Any Price".

 

how much do you want to spend.. lol

you can get spherical bushings for the pillow mounts cusco makes fronts, tein makes all four corners. you can get eurethane bushings, easy to find, buy you have to take them all out and lube them like every two weeks, you can get nylon bushings, there hard to find, but the maitenance is more on the once a year side. You can foam inject the frame, you can sand blast off all of the rubber weld **** and then really weld all of the sheet metal seams. You can relocate weight to the trunk, you can add weight to the rear, you can get flexalite front wind shield, you can... ... etc etc etc, the possibilities are endless. If you have larger than stock wheels, you can get rid of those cause there throwing off your control arm angles.

But what you really need to do is buy any one of, or all of these books:

How to Build & Modify Sportscar & Kit Car Suspension & Brakes for Road & Track (Speedpro S.) by Des Hammill

How to Make Your Car Handle by Fred Puhn

Performance Handling/How to Make Your Car Handle Techniques for the 1990s by Don Alexander

Secrets of Solo Racing: Expert Techniques for Autocrossing and Time Trials by Henry A. Watts

Competition Car Suspension: A practical hand book by Allan Staniforth

Some aspects of suspension and steering design for modern compact cars (SAE) (SAE) by J. H Sorsche

High-Performance Handling Handbook (Motorbooks Workshop) by Don Alexander

The Isaac Newton School of Driving: Physics and Your Car by Barry Parker

+ about 500 more

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Seeds &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much do you want to spend.. lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're a better car builder than I.


My fun times in the accord:

Accord Kills WRX in the Twisties
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1193978

 

M3 all the way if you have the money i SOld my 328is for my accord.....Only 2 problems i would see is the the bemmer was in The shop once every 2 months...THe accord....WEll it still hasnt even seen a shop Not including an Alignment the other day.....But the Bmw was a **** Load faster and my Bm Got better Gass miles then my accord...has more top end..Ext...But parts for the accord are About the same price for E36...SO it all depends on you... next car 1997 M3 yellow 2 door....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RotaryBzzzz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You're a better car builder than I.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

doubtfull, I have just been doing it along time, and have read alot. I have done plenty of stupid things to cars, and have wasted lots of money, but with experience come knowledge... and theres still alot of things I dont know.

a good thing to do, is if you are thinking about a particular part, search it on H-T, there are write ups and people asking the same question galore. You can find personal reviews and vouches for almost every honda related product ever made on the board if you use the search. If there isnt anything, ask, for better or worse, someone here has used it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RotaryBzzzz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I find that hard to believe unless your running against novice drivers on crappy rubber and stock suspensions. Then that's not a fair comparison.

E36 m3 is almost 100lbs less (@ 3075), has perfect 50/50 and is FR. Not to mention another 105 hp over a 94 Ex (stock for stock).

It was also Car & Driver's 1997 "Best Handling Car at Any Price".</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is stock man! H22 with a set of ITB's, burns stainless headers and exhaust, 12:1 compression pistons and a whole lot of little hp adding tricks and head porting and port matching. My last accord made 332.5 HP with 302 ft/lbs tq to the wheels N/A
that car was stolen. Im building a new one

the fastest m3 i have ever gone up against was 390 or so hp with somewhere around 350 tq, usually there more around my range as far as power. The class i race in is unsponsered semi-pro, you have to have certifications. The great thing about road racing is those numbers dont matter! but your 0-60 does and so does your 60-0, you almost never have a strait away long enough to need your motors full potential. with every turn i take racing an m3 i pull more and more on them because they cant take off the way i can. 50/50 weight ratio... blah, for drifting maybe, but other wise, that is what pre-loaded sway bars are for. M3s are good competitors though, I just eat them alive thats all! only car i have problems with and have yet to beat is the elise. I was a fill in for a sponsered car that is owned by a friend of mine one day. I dont like them because there not challenging at all. There to perfect so they tick me off.


Modified by Seeds at 2:55 PM 8/14/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Seeds &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My last accord made 332.5 HP with 302 ft/lbs tq to the wheels N/A
that car was stolen. Im building a new one

</TD></TR></TABLE>

setup? pics? dyno? dood thats more than 2point6 and alot of the NHRA, NDRA, BOTI NA cars..