....rev and drop into third without dis-engaging the clutch and then rev again and drop into second and let the clutch out and take the corner?

I have really been working on my heel toe's and was wondering what you guys do when you are coming down a straight and you have to get down to second to get out of the turn. Hit every gear on the way down or right to second?

Thanks

 

is there some kind of online FAQ on how to shift and down shift "right"?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TanCar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">is there some kind of online FAQ on how to shift and down shift "right"?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/e....html

just go from 4th to second but make sure you do it at the end of your braking so you don't over rev the engine.

 

On that link they are only going from fourth to third, but I guess what they are saying is wait until almost all your braking is done before you push in the clutch. At this point you will going slow enough that you can blip and drop into second and gas up threw the corner.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....rev and drop into third without dis-engaging the clutch and then rev again and drop into second and let the clutch out and take the corner?

I have really been working on my heel toe's and was wondering what you guys do when you are coming down a straight and you have to get down to second to get out of the turn. Hit every gear on the way down or right to second?

Thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

i heel-toe into third then heel-toe into second before a 90 degree corner turn. clutch basically goes down - up, down - up (disengage-engage, disengage-engage) without any pause with the left foot.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cgo_62 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i heel-toe into third then heel-toe into second before a 90 degree corner turn. clutch basically goes down - up, down - up (disengage-engage, disengage-engage) without any pause with the left foot. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you are doing them with no pause why do you pump the clutch? What is the advantage?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....rev and drop into third without dis-engaging the clutch and then rev again and drop into second and let the clutch out and take the corner?

I have really been working on my heel toe's and was wondering what you guys do when you are coming down a straight and you have to get down to second to get out of the turn. Hit every gear on the way down or right to second?

Thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hit every gear and let the clutch out between downshifts. If you watch the video I posted at VIR you can hear the shifts from 5th down to 3rd on both straights.

http://video.google.com/videop...hl=en

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6ghatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I hit every gear and let the clutch out between downshifts. If you watch the video I posted at VIR you can hear the shifts from 5th down to 3rd on both straights.

http://video.google.com/videop...hl=en</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nice pass by the way.

I could hear you blipping, but it seemed a lot of those shifts were concurrent. Did you fully engage the clutch on every downshift?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I could hear you blipping, but it seemed a lot of those shifts were concurrent. Did you fully engage the clutch on every downshift?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't. For me, it's actually more of a "timing thing". Honestly, it's probably not necessary for me to shift into every gear, but I feel like I'm able to be smoother and time my inputs better if I do this.

You know, small minds need to do things like this

 

Some people go right to their chosen gear, some people hit every one on the way down. Many people use the latter to help gauge their decel and know better where they'll be in the RPM range afterwards. Go with what feels right to you and helps you be consistant.

 

In a brake zone that long, you are just waiting anyway. May as well use the time to practice an extra downshift

There aren't too many places where I have the opportunity to do two downshifts, but I tend to hit all the gears when given the chance. Don't ask me why. The only recent exception was braking off the start straight at Mid O from the middle of 5th to 3rd. Taking 4th took so long I just started going straight to 3rd.

 

The only place I've needed two downshifts, going into the hairpin at Barbers, I use 4-3-2 to help aid my insuficent brakes in slowing the car down just that little bit more. That and I'm worried that I'd blow it up if I tried to go straight from fourth to second.

 

this last time at gingerman, i would blip + downshift in to 3rd + blip downshift into second half way through the corner back on the gas hard. now maybe thats incorrect but i guess thats how i do it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Nice pass by the way.

I could hear you blipping, but it seemed a lot of those shifts were concurrent. Did you fully engage the clutch on every downshift?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks, on the main straight I would definitely engage the clutch. I like it when the engine assists in the braking. On the short section before the crossover most of the time I would engage the clutch but sometimes I'd do what Jason said, "it's a timing thing" and just go through the gears without engaging the clutch.

 

I guess it can go either way. Since I have been hitting every gear I will stay with that. It helps me guage how much I need blip to let the clutch out the final time and get on the gas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by giff74 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you are doing them with no pause why do you pump the clutch? What is the advantage?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i brake, disengage, downshift-blip, engage into third then do the same for second without pausing because city driving doesn't require too much braking distance nor engine-assisted braking.

i don't think of it as advantageous, just how i learned. i truly don't know enough to speculate any advantages of one method over another.

on a side note:
there's a video by best motoring int. in which a rally driver and a circuit driver time attacked a small tarmac course (under 1 min, some esses, a hairpin, with elevation change, and a 50 r turn) with a stock evo 8(?). the rally driver raced without using heel-toe and got the same time as the heel-toeing circuit driver. even though this wasn't very comprehensive, i came away realizing that there's definately more than one way to skin a cat.


Modified by cgo_62 at 8:15 PM 8/5/2006

 

I was told to downshift through the gears but not actually let the clutch out. Just rev the engine to where the transmission would be in each gear and when you are finally at your gear then let the clutch out. The instructor told me this was easier on the synchros. So basically, I'm rev matching in each gear on the way down without letting out the clutch.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was told to downshift through the gears but not actually let the clutch out. Just rev the engine to where the transmission would be in each gear and when you are finally at your gear then let the clutch out. The instructor told me this was easier on the synchros. So basically, I'm rev matching in each gear on the way down without letting out the clutch. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can do it either way. If you're heel-toeing correctly it's not going to be any more wear on your synchros. For me I row through the gears because it's what I'm used to doing and it helps me keep the "rhythm". I'm sure I could learn to do it another way, but I can't see it making much of a difference so I'll stick to what I'm doing. You'll find there are people who do each way and they like it for their individual reasons. Just like left-foot braking, some do it, some don't. Being consistent and comfortable is the most important thing to me.

 

My heel-toeing is pretty much only used on the street to make things a bit more fun. On the track, I don't do it at all. I used to, but after obtaining instuction from a few top drivers, they really suggested not doing it for multiple reasons. One, with our cars they have syncros and it just isn't necessary. It is also one more thing that you can screw-up and cost time. The less input you can do in the car the better. That said, I also shift from 5th directly into 3rd without going through the gears. If you're driving smoothly and doing transitions well, it makes things much easier and lessens the chance of error. (Again, this is talking about our street cars being tuned into race cars; some open wheel cars do require heel-toeing.)

 

Dave,

do you mean heel-toe or double clutch? Heel-toe will be necessary in sunchro or non synchro transmission. Double clutch on the other hand is not. Shoot, in dog gear tranny, you might not need to use the clutch.

 

watch some of the Aussie V8 Supercar races. They usualy show some in-car video of the drivers feet and hands. i see alot of drivers skiping shifts when downshifting.
6th to 4th to 2nd.. its pretty cool to watch.

 

Andrie,
Now I do neither when racing. On many occasions I have passed people in braking because they've made a mistake when heel-toe. It's just too simple to do and not necessary. I'm sure that while many people will swear by this technique, there are others who swear that it is necessary to do. But that's racing for ya. And my reasoning for not doing isn't because I'm not good at it as I've been doing it for years everytime I drive my street car.

 

Dave,

fair enough response. I do know a friend who is really fast and never done a heel-toe thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Andrie,
Now I do neither when racing. On many occasions I have passed people in braking because they've made a mistake when heel-toe. It's just too simple to do and not necessary. I'm sure that while many people will swear by this technique, there are others who swear that it is necessary to do. But that's racing for ya. And my reasoning for not doing isn't because I'm not good at it as I've been doing it for years everytime I drive my street car. </TD></TR></TABLE>

So you don't match revs at all before releasing the clutch? How is that on engine and clutch wear? Also, when not heel-toeing I feel the forward surge when the clutch lets out (engine braking) does this not disrupt the balance of the car entering the corner?

I was taught to heel-tow and row through the gears when I went to Bondurant school, but they could have been prepping everyone for driving the open wheeled cars they have, even though our class didn't do that (only drove the Stangs and Vettes)

 

Nope, I don't match revs. Engine and clutch wear? Better than if you ARE using the engine to do braking. Even in cars that do benefit from matching revs or heel/toe braking, the purpose isn't to use the engine for braking purposes rather so you can get on the gas quickly through the turn. I'll admit it took me a little to accept the idea that I didn't need to match revs or heel/toe. This may sound a bit silly, but I practices doing it so much and got really good at it, I felt like I should do it just because.

When approaching the end of a straight, you want to really focus on braking. When doing the heel/toe, no matter how good you are at it, there is no arguement that a person can focus as much on braking when not doing it. Heck, in many street turned racecars, the pedels don't match very well. In my Prelude, I was "lucky" that they did match nicely.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, when not heel-toeing I feel the forward surge when the clutch lets out (engine braking) does this not disrupt the balance of the car entering the corner?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hear what you're saying. When I first began using this technique, I also felt this way. It was quickly pointed out that I was shifting too early in the process. Here's kinda what I do: at the end of the straight, I really focus hard on my braking. While still on the brakes, I begun my turn in while still in 5th gear. I'm still in the entry phase (but speed is lower) I quickly shift into 3rd gear the on the gas through the turn. After practicing it, you should not feel a surge at all or unbalance of the car.

Another way to look at it as was explained to me. Lets take a track that has 2 hard braking zones. Method A: Shifting from 5th to 4th to 3rd. Also matching revs inbetween ***** and heel/toe braking. In a 15 lap race, that's 30 more shifts and a braking with a portion of your foot focusing on braking and another on rev matching with the gas. Now compare that to the other method. The less driver input the less of a chance for driver error. In a competitive race, it would only take one error of those 30 extra steps to potentially lose the race. (One time my foot even slipped off the brake and really messed me up. )

I also want to make it clear that this is simply what I do and is right for me. In practice sessions or HPDEs, try both methods when pushing things hard and see which you prefer.

(In the school you took as with the Skippy open wheel cars, it is necessary to rev match.