I was reading through the rule book today, trying to figure out where an animal such as mine would run, if I got the finances to turn my car into an ECHC contender. However, it appears there is no class where I would be competative.

At first glance, I would be in H6, I have an '85 carbed CRX, with an "original" block. But, I'm not using the original carb, and the carbs I'm using isn't the original configuration [by a long shot]. So I'm out of the general outline all together. The engine's been rebuilt, to SCCA SP specs [bored .040 over, but still under the honda spec limit of .050 over for that engine] and since I changed cylinder heads, I'm suddenly a hybrid [assuming that I could compete at all with my intake configuration]. And then to top it all off, the hybrid rules say that my pistons make me illegal for that! So basically, my engine is built to CSP specs, with the original CR [which takes me out of hybrid contention unless I put a full race cam in it], so that puts me slightly under GT3 specs for the same engine configuration, and that makes me totally illegal for ECHC. Am I missing something?


[Modified by 1stGenCRXer, 11:25 PM 4/22/2002]

 

Hmmm . . . I have no idea offhand.


*bump*

 

the different intake manifolds or carbs would put you in hybrid I think. What type of pistons are you using?

 

As the rules are written, the carb makes you illegal in H1. What's up with your pistons that makes them illegal?

 

As per section 3.8.3 "The engine, from the top of the engine block “down” to the ground, MUST be
constructed entirely of Honda parts. No aftermarket parts are permitted in this, the
“bottom end,” of a hybrid engine. Engine overboring is subject to the restrictions
listed in section 3.1 of this Rulebook"

My pistons are made by Rivergate [ http://www.rivergate5speed.com/honda_performance.html ] since Honda doesn't make .040 over pistons for my engine, and that's the limit for CSP, cylinder needed .030 over anyway, so I went ahead and did .040 over.

I just find it very odd, that I can build an engine that is perfectly legal for CSP, and is actually underbuilt for GT3, both large, national classes, and that it doesn't appear that I can run anything in ECHC.

 

in CSP/IT you can use aftermarket pistons provided you are not saving any weight over factory units. Legal? I'd hope so

 

Yeah, they're made by IT racing people, they're legal.

 

Are they the exact same piston weight & provide the exact same compression as the OEM piston? More or lower compression?

Pete

 

If this thing represents an IT legal car, then the overbore would bump you up to H5 from H6. Which doesn't actually sound so bad to me.

Read things carefully before you pull the trigger on "building" a Honda Challenge car. People have already run into problems who built cars before ECHC even existed. They, not surprisingly, ended up with little illegal stuff sneaking in. Not a big deal...but in the event of a protest, the rulebook stands. Every time.

Are the rules going to change next year? Probably. But it won't be radical changes. Any changes from here forward will be to fix things we've missed, things that have come up since they were written, and the like.

--Karl, who reminds us that we don't care about xSP rules...but we do care about Pro Sedan and IT.

 

Same weight, and slightly dished to provide the same compression ratio as stock.

The block itself is IT legal, it's the multiple carbs that blow it's legality for ECHC all to hell. I was just looking around and thinking of how fun it would be to run possibly the oldest honda on the circuit against all the other track cars, but if I can't keep my finishes I suppose I won't. I just think it's a bit odd that SOHC engines have the same restrictions as the DOHC VTEC hybrid counterparts. As it stands, my street engine/car has the same power to weight ratio as a stock B16 powered second gen CRX or stripped hatch, but significantly short on power when compared to a similar car with, say a GSR, Type R or B20 VTEC combination. It seems all rather biased to me, which dwindles my enthusiasm.

 

The bottom line with racing is that we can't make every possible car/part combination competitive in a fair manner.

There is no bias here...I'm not sure what you could be talking about. We've given people a chance to build a Honda-bodied, Honda-powered "something" to race. If it happens that the best developed platform includes a VTEC engine...don't be upset if you have an allegiance to older Honda drivetrains.

We don't have the bandwidth to write a super complex ruleset that takes into account "if it's a SOHC engine then this, but if it's a DOHC engine then that, but wait...if it's carb'd..." The H1 rules were also written based on competitor feedback. As in, people who committed to running in the series, in its *first year*, by paying for permanent numbers, building cars, and getting licenses. Like it or not, that's important.

I'm doing the best I can here and believe me, after this weekend, I'd be more than happy to step down as "the rules guy" for 2003. If you'd like to nominate yourself for the job, by the end of the year I'll likely be willing to step down.

--Karl, who is not flaming you...just pointing out the facts of setting up a race series for the first time.

 

Oh believe me, I understand how rules and race series go, 2 members of my 5 person family where on the executive board for the local karting club I was racing in for 2 years. My mom wrote by-laws and my dad was in charge of driver/kart safety pre-tech inspections.

My only implication in saying I thought there is a bias in place is that I was under the impression that H1 was the outlet for the big money spenders, and since the series is strictly normally aspirated [as per original Honda intentions], I fail to see exactly what the harm would be in allowing open intake rules for SOHC engines since it's much harder to get a single cam to flow large volumes of air compared with DOHC engines, with the allowance of cam gears and all. I'm not trying to criticize the series at all, I think it's a great idea and really good that it's getting such a great reaction, it's just that until I read the rules today I was all set to sell all my karts and come play too. But if I'm going to be found illegal before I ever even get to set a lap time to chase, there's not a lot of reason for me to make the trip, you know?

But if someone wants me to hotshoe for them I could quit belly-achin'

-Harry, just trying to join the fun

 

Well if you want to join in on the fun you could always build a legal motor for that car. I don't see it costing more than $1000 to get something in it or you could swap in a ZC and your problems will be solved. I am not flaming you here either but the tone of your post sounds like you want the rules changed for your car. If you don't like the fact that intake/carbs are restricted talk to the SCCA. The ECHC rules are built on IT rules and as Mr. Shultz stated - the hybrid rules were written with the input of the competitors.

Besides, why would you want to run your car in hybrid? I would think that you would at least want to build a better - and legal motor for it.

There are rules that I would change too. Everyone has them. That doesn't change anything however. The rules are in place for a reason and I need to follow them if I want to play. Saying there is a bias in the rules is absurd. Period. There are plenty of SOHC guys that were competetive out there this weekend. H4 and H5 were even won by SOHC cars.

 

H1 can be an outlet for big money spenders, while H2-H6 has very strict modification limitations to keep the rules simple and costs down. It is a good balance.If we allow a go-fast mod, then all the drivers have get it to be competitive. This runs up the costs for drivers. Then there is a whole thing about parity across series. IT cars have to run stock intakes. If we want IT people to come play with us, or allow people to buys IT cars to race in ECHC, we need to keep the rules in line.

Poeple need to stop looking at the rules as, "I have a mod X, why don't you change the rules to make it legal. Here is why I think it is okay ...".

 

Harry has spent a lot of time working on his current engine setup. I think what you're hearing is frustration over having spent that amount of time and possibly having "over-prepared" it.

 

Chit!! a dam H4 SOHC car was 4th fastest on Sat!!!!


Yack -who respects the D series goodness for being much lighter than a B series

 

d series done right......like a blower on your vx can be pretty quick

 

JeffS has this one nailed. 2 years ago when I was planning and building this thing, I didn't know what ECHC was or would be.

Again, I know how racing series rules work, I've been in enough different series to know that it's easy to go from a 10 page rule book to a full 150 in a single season once you start allowing aftermarket parts.

But as for why I would want to run in hybrid?

Because even if I couldn't win, I would certainly raise some eyebrows.

H4 and H5 cars are stock intake cars, why would I want to subtract 50 HP from my setup to run slower and in a class against SOHC VTEC cars that make the same power I do now in street tune, and weigh about the same [meaning I would get creamed beyond belief] when I could prep my car, keep my engine and possibly outdrive a hatch or two? And I don't want to hear about how I should start out slow and learn to drive wheel to wheel first, anyone that was at the 2 hour kart race in charlotte this year knows I can drive wheel to wheel.

I guess if I really want to play it will have to be with another car, for now I'll stick with my karts [120 on the straight of summit ]

 

Unfortunately in the HC, teams aren't put together by qualifying times and you can't drop your C driver from the team for a competitive advantage.

 

I still turned 8 of the fastest 12 laps for the whole event, and turned more laps consistantly in the 34's than any one else, I have the time sheets still.

 

I can understand that however - it isn't our fault that has happened. I don't see why the rules should be adjusted because he built the car without a specific series in mind thus negating the rules (since his car is not legal for IT either).

EDIT: That configuration could possibly come in under H1 since that setup is legal for SCCA Production class racing. I am not sure where it would run there but if it is G or H Prod then it is legal for H1 (at least that is what I think). The catch is that it needs to be a production car and not a standard-prepped car with a production motor.

Cobra - Who has a set of Mikuni dual-sidedraft carbs sitting on a 12 valve Si TWM intake that he can't use. By the way - you are giving that setup more credit than it deserves.


[Modified by Cobra, 11:21 AM 4/23/2002]

 

Geezus people. It was, and is, a simple question. I just wanted to make sure I was reading the rules correctly that my car's current configuration is outright illegal for the series and try to get an understanding of the rationale. The car was built for CSP, simple. That was the series it was built for, and besides that, if I still want to use my setup for a national series, I'm a cam and jetting away from the normal Touring Car GT3 rules [even though that allows me to build a tube frame car]. I'm NOT trying to get the rules changed, I'm just venting, relax...

 

The point is you are venting frustrations out on people who did not ultimately cause your frustrations. That isn't fair to Karl who spent ungodly amounts of time writing the rules for this series. As I said I can understand your frustration but don't bitch here. It is not appropriate.

 

How do you figure that? It's not a "production block" once it's bored and blueprinted anymore, you just threw all the factory specs out the window and went a step above.

 

hmmmm.......o really? think these could be "rigged" to work on an 88 dx crx head?