sorry to publicly bring this issue here fellas, but i would appreciate your feedbacks since this deal stemmed from a thread in our FS/WTB thread at the top of our ITR forum.

about a week and a half ago i responded to a post by "hypeR speed" from the sticky above concerning a set of jdm itr centercaps he had for sale. i'm quoting now on page 3 on the thread among a list of other stuff he has for sale..."Honda Champ White center caps Brand New $160"

i messaged him since he had no pics and he convinced me that they were BRAND NEW NEVER BEEN USED. now if you look at his thread, please note he makes NO mention of the word USED or the expression "brand new CONDITION". i figured what the hey, he sounds honest, he is posting on the itr forums, he isnt a newbie and "new" means "new", never had any mileage. would a little faith in a fellow itr forum member hurt???

APPARENTLY IT DID. i received them today, and i feel cheated as you guys will see in the pics below, the caps were NOT as advertised. i feel misled..."brand new" means new where you can lick it and not worry. would you lick the caps below?

i messaged aaron, told him of this and he INSISTS that they are "brand new" and HE EVEN CHECKED EACH ONE BEFORE SENDING THEM OUT. why do i get the feeling that someone who actually did buy a brand-new set saved the original packaging and is now trying to pull the fast one on me, trying to pass off a used set as brand-new.

its $160. not much compared to the $ ive spent in the past on HT. but it is the PRINCIPAL that stings. what if nextime s/o else out there decides to spend $2000 on a part advertised as "new" and gets a used one instead?? i have a good rep with other members here and they can vouch for me. there is no reason why i would waste my time or another's over stupid caps, BUT I HATE FEELING CHEATED!

 

NOTHING was altered, removed or cleaned. the pics show EXACTLY how i pulled them out of the box

 

damn that sucks bro. You guys should work out a deal and get 60 backs or something that would be fair IMO.

 

i gave him only 3 choices. ONLY 3 i will not accept any other deal. this situation bites.

1-he refunds me the full $160 + $5 shipping to send the caps back to him. there is NO reason why i should eat any shipping for this. refund via usps MONEY ORDER ONLY. i dont know him well enough to trust him anymore with paypal.

2-he refunds me $60 and we call it EVEN. that is a fair rate for USED caps.

3-refusal of the first 2 and i file a claim with paypal, and he lives with this on his rep as a seller.

there is NO reason why i should not demand a quick and fair resolution. i sent money for a part i did not receive. i am not a newbie here on the forums, this will NOT stand.

 

I'm no rocket surgeon or brain scientist, but it shouldn't all the centrecaps have the metal coils, two are missing and one looks bent

 

yes you are right...for caps that are claimed to be brand new, 2 coils are indeed MIA. for s/o to claim that they checked them before shipped out, i doubt such an obvious slip up would be overlooked.


Modified by Lucky-R at 5:00 AM 7/20/2006


Modified by Lucky-R at 5:01 AM 7/20/2006

 

Not jumping on sides or to conclusions, but it's this reason I personally like to send parts to someone I know in the area of the seller/purchaser and have them do the deal for me. I've done it this way many times and have had no issues. Sorry to hear your misfortunes.

 

I can see how you might believe the centercaps are not new. they were test fitted and the leftover brake dust in the centerbore has stained the hooks. Yes, i didn't realize the rings were missing, I verified that the caps were in the packaging w/o actually inspecting each one (btw that ring was not bent by me, i remember specifically that they're not perfectly round. the other two rings may still be in my garage but i'm not sure). Which is precisely the reason why I asked for pics, because in my mind, they were still clean and I needed to verify that we were referring to the same caps. Yet they have never been used or washed clean to hide any evidence of use. The color of the plastic was always that dull beige color, perhaps someone else can verify this. Yes I remarked that they were Brand New and had never been used, and like i had specifically stated, they were test fitted. And in response to your comment, yes I would lick them-i'm that confident they've never been used.

As far as being fair goes, you first accused me of lying, which I didn't like very much, yet I tried to remain professional and responded, asking for pictures of what you called "used". Again you responded, attacking me in your response calling me a scammer. Within 20 minutes of my asking for pictures you responded with this thead (i wanted to verify that the caps we were talking about were indeed the same caps, because i myself felt that i was being scammed out of my new caps).

the pictures you posted show the black tongs, and the missing rings, yet they fail to show the condition of the face itself. if there was a high resolution picture, it would show the caps are flawless because in fact they are still new and gilistening in its original clearcoat and haven't been used. my biggest problem here is that you think they've been used and i'm telling you they were brand new when i bought them, still new when i test fitted them, and new when i put it back in it's packaging because they didnt fit the '96 nsx rims they were originally intended for. 2 rings are missing because I tried fitting the caps w/o the rings to see if it still would fit (not the case) but they're probably sitting in the corner of my garage somewhere.

Obviously I can't seem to convince you they were new and not used, hence our big argument.

Brand new OEM CW (not GM) center caps from jdmland, passwordjdm list each for ~50-70 ~200 for all 4. (jdmland $69, password 49.99)

Reason why I can't let them go for $100
1) They're new (OK i opened them, tried them on, but never driven on the street 0 miles--im so positive they've never been driven on i'll be willing to asked at gunpoint and would still answer they've never been driven on)--(a bit drastic i know)
2) BRAND NEW never opened CW caps are still $200 (i think paying 160 w/o paypal fees or shipping for test fitted caps is fair)
3) I would feel scammed (like i said they're still new and not USED i can't let brand new test fitted caps go for $100)

If more people can chime in and give their opinions on the definition of "brand new" i'd be more than willing to reconsider, apologize that they weren't new as per the accepted definition of being "new", and refund you $20.. That's $140 for near "brand new" "like new" status. I say $20 because that's the most i'd be willing to take a hit on and because they still have no mileage).

If you remember my last pm to you, I clearly said send me pictures because i felt like i was the one being scammed and i expressed my opinion on this matter. Not less than within 20 minutes of my replying to you, this thread was created w/o sending me pics. I've yet to receive the pictures, and it's now 7.24 in the morning and I havent gotten any sleep over this matter.

I don't mind that we are trying to clear this issue up. However I do mind that you make me out to be a scammer and liar and publicly try to make me out as one as well. I thought we were trying to resolve this in a friendly manner and as far as I'm concerned I was making a serious effort to be as professional as possible. And as you remarked in our conversations we both have our reputations on HT as buyer and seller. However you went ahead and took a shot at mine. I would like for it to be known that I am in fact trying to deal with this issue at hand as respectfully and honestly as I can.

Ultimately, if you are completely and utterly dissatisfied with the condition of the center caps, I am willing to refund your $160, however only through paypal. I think most people would agree that money will not be "lost" through paypal. This is for my protection as well as yours, I do not feel safe sending money orders. I am hoping that you can trust me on this, I'm not one to scam you and run away. I enjoy the honda-tech community and it's knowledgeable itr forum patrons, and have no intention of scamming and leaving.

Had you been more willing to negotiate and not jump to conclusions, we could have avoided dragging the forum into our argument and harming my rep.

Is it fair that I bit the paypal fee($4.94), paid $4.55 for shipping, and am now expected to pay another $4.55 for returning perfectly fine center caps? I'd like everyone's input on this matter, because i don't feel its fair for me to be held responsible on the whim of the buyer.

Let's resolve this matter as soon as possible. Let's keep future correspondence limited to private messages unless you would like for the forum to be a witness to whatever you need to say. If I still haven't convinced you that they haven't been used, then like i said, i'll refund your money.

-Aaron

 

Good luck to both parties on resolving this, you ITR guys are some picky *****

 

your explanation seems reasonable. i think $20 off for test fitting them seems appropriate. either that or offer the guy a full refund via paypal, the USPS money order refund is a bit over the top IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by YumVTEC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your explanation seems reasonable. i think $20 off for test fitting them seems appropriate. either that or offer the guy a full refund via paypal, the USPS money order refund is a bit over the top IMO.</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2

 

what a baby...

they look new to me...

are you going to be showing off the back of the cap or what?

 

"Brand New" means the part never touched the car, period. There's nothing confusing about the term. The Buyer didn't pay for "perfectly fine" caps, he paid for "Brand New" caps.

Now, if the Seller notified the Buyer that he test-fit the caps, then the Seller should have expected the caps to be a little dirty. If the Seller was not advised that they were test-fit, then the Buyer misrepresented their condition. This part of the story is not clear.

In the end, what gets me is the Seller still has not shipped the two missing rings. What right does the Seller have to complain about how picky the Buyer is, and for having to incur additional shipping charges? He's holding the Buyer's $160, yet he still has not delivered the missing rings, nor has he given any indication that he even intends to look for them in his garage.

 

yea take the $20, put some gas in your car and call it a day... I don't think its a big enough of an issue to worry about. Obviously the seller was just thinking in different terms than you bro.

 

This will be the 2nd scammed post made today if i dont hear back from a well know user here on the boards by 1pm eastern time.

 

who cares about the back of them seriously, show us the front if their mint in the front whats the big deal?

if your really that **** about stuff, you should go buy them new yourself and stop trying to save a few bucks.

im not trying to take either side, i just hate buyers remorse on ht.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Batoutahell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"Brand New" means the part never touched the car, period. There's nothing confusing about the term. The Buyer didn't pay for "perfectly fine" caps, he paid for "Brand New" caps.

Now, if the Seller notified the Buyer that he test-fit the caps, then the Seller should have expected the caps to be a little dirty. If the Seller was not advised that they were test-fit, then the Buyer misrepresented their condition. This part of the story is not clear.

In the end, what gets me is the Seller still has not shipped the two missing rings. What right does the Seller have to complain about how picky the Buyer is, and for having to incur additional shipping charges? He's holding the Buyer's $160, yet he still has not delivered the missing rings, nor has he given any indication that he even intends to look for them in his garage. </TD></TR></TABLE>



Brand new means sealed packaging. Those are "as new" or "like new" if all the rings were included, which they were not. I'd say buyer is entitled to rings + some money off, and seller should pay more careful attention to how his FS posts are worded.

 

They were missing the 2 rings and installed on a set of wheels, that makes them worth the same as used ones in my opinion, even though they supposedly never saw any street use. I know if I pay good money for something described as new, I want to recieve exactly what I paid for & what was described, I have to side with Lucky R on this one, although I would say refund $40 & ship the other 2 rings at no charge to him. The going rate on used ones lately has been around $120. If thats not good enough for him, refund him the full amount + $5 for him to have to ship them back, as he should not be put out anything, they were described as new & came in slightly less than new condition. I hope you guys can work through this like mature adults & are both happy with the final outcome .

 

I believe the parts are used since they were "test fitted" and missing the two rings. Once parts are taken out of the packaging and "test fitted" this in my mind changes the condition from new to used even if they were "test fitted" for a matter of seconds. Since you claimed the center caps were brand new and failed to disclose the fact that you "test fitted" the center caps it is only fair that he is offered a full refund (which you have offered) if you can not agree on another resolution.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Batoutahell &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"Brand New" means the part never touched the car, period. There's nothing confusing about the term. The Buyer didn't pay for "perfectly fine" caps, he paid for "Brand New" caps.

Now, if the Seller notified the Buyer that he test-fit the caps, then the Seller should have expected the caps to be a little dirty. If the Seller was not advised that they were test-fit, then the Buyer misrepresented their condition. This part of the story is not clear.

In the end, what gets me is the Seller still has not shipped the two missing rings. What right does the Seller have to complain about how picky the Buyer is, and for having to incur additional shipping charges? He's holding the Buyer's $160, yet he still has not delivered the missing rings, nor has he given any indication that he even intends to look for them in his garage. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly. BRAND new means brand new. If the seller cannot redress the issue to the satisfaction of the buyer, then the buyer should be entitled to send everything back for a full refund (minus shipping/paypal fees).

Your word is your bond.

:EDIT: the seller seems willing to refund the $160, if that's the case, then this should be resolved.


Modified by Kengs at 3:04 PM 7/20/2006

 

i appreciate everyone's advice, even from those who call me a baby because i know not everyone has the same level of standards as i do.

i took the best pics that i could with my camera, although i wish i had a better lens that would clearly exhibit actual road grime and fine surface differences consistent with waxing. why would i embarrasse myself over stupid caps if i didnt feel taken? USED is USED, there is no black and white about it. ask anybody here in the last 5 years whom i have done business with and they will tell you that i absolutely admit to ANY smell, nuance and taste on every part that i sell, whether it be a crack or a ding etc. i sold a pair of brand-new "condition" recaro tomcat seats lastyear on honda-tech that i could have passed as "never" been USED but i STILL told the buyer they had seen the inside of my car, even though all factory tags were intact.

i know the difference between a "test-fit" as claimed by this seller, but really, WHY test fit ALL FOUR CAPS? explain to me how road grime can accumulate again from a test fit and are you that careless to supossedly lose the metal rings for a part that you so claim "inspected" BEFORE sending out?

point of my thread is, what is really left out there in a deal between two car buffs if not honesty where we can find it? i tell you now, and if not for the principal of it and right being right, i am scammed in this deal for being made to believe i had purchased "BRAND NEW CAPS WITH ZERO MILEAGE". its not the damn money! why this seller INSISTS they are used and insults my judgement is what is at point fuels my arguement. a refund is the last ditch effort that would atleast correct a deal gone bad, and all i did was pay.

sure, i can just take it in the *** and just bend over, move on as i guess some of you would apparently just do. BUT NOT ME. this is not my last deal on HT and i know this is not for this seller. if i can warn another in advance the kind of deal one can expect with aaron, than this sour taste in my mouth will not be for nothing. it could be you next time in a much bigger deal, and if you dont fight the fight you know in your heart to be true, than you may as well be an accessory to all scammers.

I WANT MY MONEY BACK! YOU HAVE MY PAYPAL ADDRESS.

if i dont see it in 24 hours, i will send a nice love letter to paypal and take this issue as far as i can. this is stupid and silly and i am ashamed to have my name even associated with this crap, but apparently i am pushed to no other choice.

folks i've done business with and other character references:
reid
ausmith
mugen mike
b2finity
geoff@jdmtheory.com
matt@ICB
ben@aj-racing
yoshi
kepani
haleiwa-brando
macrosshn
austrian-typer
cosworth
white rocket
mark paco
808dc2
len@baranco
chubzilla
ams mike
aspecproducts
nwp4life
na-cutie
ithrowpoop
leftlaneb*tch
t.blizzard

these are just off the top of my head...after years of dealing on HT and trying to be as honest as i can with every deal, buy or sell, is it wrong to expect the same level of standards?

 

i am even WILLING to send these caps to a third party moderator and inspect for themselves and see that they are USED. i am that confident because to some people, it is a matter of his argument over mine. well i have nothing to lose at this point

 

I've done business with Lucky-R in the past, and he is probably one of the most straight edge honest buyers/sellers I've dealed with, to date.

I Hope everything works out.

On a sidenote***..

To the person who sold these center caps to Lucky-R..

Can you explain <U>WHY</U> the center caps are in NSX part numbered bags? If they're as you claim "in the original packaging"

SLO=NSX
ST7= Integra




I say you refund his money, thats what anyone with "good" business ethics would do ...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NWP4LIFE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To the person who sold these center caps to Lucky-R..

Can you explain <U>WHY</U> the center caps are in NSX part numbered bags? If they're as you claim "in the original packaging"

SLO=NSX
ST7= Integra
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Interesting point.

 

thanks andy, that really means a lot. and for the record, i NEVER ONCE called you a liar and scammer in our own private messages. i posted this issue up for all to see because i could already tell your mind was made up and there was no way to convince you. i can paste it here for all to see if you want, but why waste anymore bandwith...