Just bought a 97 prelude and am now addicted to VTEC, however i've read on this forum about guys pushing 250whp. my question is what sort of goodies should i be buying in order to approach 200-210 whp, will i have to open the engine up, wouldn't mind replacing cams but replacing pistons would be a pain not to mention expensive. any advice would be appreciated guys

 

start off with header, intake, and exhaust. A good setup should put you around that mark.

 

I/H/E and some type s cams and a good tune should get you around that mark

 

Thanx for the response guys, was thinking of goin all the way with 4 separate jenvey throttlebodys with a megasquirt system, with this and skunk stage 2 cams i could prob make some good power. Any off you know off any1 who has but 4 separate TB's on a H22?

 

^98vtec has them

 

a megasquirt ecu isn't made for a honda
try hondata or crome or uberdata

 

i can only go by what my 97 has but as i understand i thought all 5th gen preludes ran a single throttle body on a plenum style intake, i know we have multipoint injection ( and therefore seperate injectors per cylinder ) but i thought runnning an individual runner type manifold with an injector per cylinder (at least to start with!) would be more benificial as unlike the standard manifold flow would not be a problem and shorter intake trumpets could be used in conjuction with higher duration cams to provide more power higher up. From what i can deduct from reading on this forum and other places, peoples answers for this is a bigger single throttle body but even with all the tuning in the world it must be a pain in the *** to drive at even moderate speed with such a big throttle plate!

 

Individual Throttle Bodies are going to be more trouble than a TB/Intake mani setup. They're harder to tune, given that they're a signifigant departure from the stock setup.

If you're willing to deal with that, more power to you. 98vtec is building some DIY ITBs (DIY = motorcycle ITBs with some fabbing = cheap), and there are some ones that you can buy ready to run.

They're not necessary for 200-210whp, though. For that just get a *good* header, 2.5" exhaust, and some medium to big sized cams. With tuning (there are much simpler solutions than megasquirt for hondas, but use whatever) you should be around there. If you need more, intake mani work and more compression are the next places to look.

 

thanx for the reply blue lude, your prob right. am just thinkin about different options, really dont want to go FI, the H22 is such a beautiful engine i just want to give it the type r treatment and beat the 100hp per litre barrier, i thought it would be hard (hence the 200-210hp target) but now i'm starting to thing 240hp at the crank might achievable fairly easy. I think the main thing is raising compression with pistons, from what i can gather that isn't as easy as it is in other engines, but apart from being difficult and costly, individual throttle boddies are the ultimate for us that want NA power, and they look good! BTW megasquirt (and the new megasquirt and sprk sytem) can work with any engine, is just a homebrew version of emerald or motec but is obviously not up to that standard but does the same thing

 

If you can make megasquirt work, go wild. As long as it can, in some fashion, work with VTEC you should be fine.

200-210whp is definitely around 240hp at the crank. (Stock is 190-200 crank hp and high 150s to low 160s whp, usually)

H-series engines have pretty good potential.

Rasing your compression isn't impossible, but the cylinder liners of the H-series do prevent you from dropping in run of the mill aftermarket forged pistons. You either have to run OEM pistons (USDM H22 = 10.0:1 CR, JDM H22 = 10.6:1, JDM Type-S = 11.0:1), use Mahle's new pistons (which seem to work, and are available in a variety of CRs), or sleeve the block and run whatever pistons you want ($$$)

 

i'm guessing that there are problems with using aluminium pistons with the H22, being an all alloy block. Does it have regular liners or is it all screwed up a-la porsche 928 v8.

 

the sleeves in our stock motors are FRM (fiber reinforced metal). And as of the present day, there are only three pistons , besides the ones that came in the motor, that you can run with the stock sleeves. JUN, Mahle Gold Series, and the Type S H22 pistons. 200whp is not uncommon anymore now that we have such an availibility of parts that far exceed the boundaries of anything that is mass produced. If you want a good build, you are going to have to throw down some money. to achieve 240 crank/220 whp, you will want to get a custom header, high flow cat or straight pipe, 2.5" exhaust and a built head.
Megasquirt can be used on honda's, there are a few 3rd gens on preludepower running megasquirt with their turbo and NA motors.
As for the ITBs. There are ways to get around running 4 throttles and still make the same amount of power with an IM/TB setup. Just take a look at jd3jdm's build. The intake manifold, in my eyes, is on par or greater than any ITB set on the market. Mostly because it was built by someone who knows the ins and outs of building custom designs that actually work.
Don't forget about tuning. Thats an essential part to a great build that many people leave off because they think that just by installing these awesome parts, its going to run right and make the power.

 

heres a little thing i typed up awhile back to get your started:

BOLT ONS:
Bolt ons should be the first mofications of the motor (unless you are balling and do it all at one time). These parts include: intake, intake manifold, header, high flow cat, exhaust, pulleys, ignition (really isnt needed for stock motors. Stock ignition is good to ~250whp), and whatever other performance modifications that do not involve opening the motor.

Intake:
The theory about intakes is this. An intake is an intake. Any ebay intake will perform the same as an AEM given that you are not using a POS filter. That brings me to the next thing. The filter is the most important part of the intake. From "my" research, the Apex'i filter is the best one you can buy. It filters out the most crap and lasts the longest.
updated: New ways to gain power with an intake have been to add a velocity stack to the end of your short ram. If you want to get more info on this, check out the all motor forum and search for "velocity stack" in recent threads and the archives.

Header:
There is alot of discussions regarding which header is the best. What header is best "to you" depends on how much money you are willing to spend. The mass manufactured headers like Dc Sports dont make the greatest hp and are really there to just look good. If you are serious about getting your moneys worth, i highly suggest purchasing a custom header (if your budget can support it). Custom headers range in very wide price ranges. Starting with a mild steel Prospeed/ANR header (~500-600) and ending with Hytech (~1300). There are many fabricators. RMF, SMSP, DTR, Hytech, Prospeed, Kteller, Burns. These custom pieces have been known to put down anywhere from 10-20whp (wide range due to tuning).
Now, if you are on a budget and you really dont want to pay for a custom piece, your next best bet is to purchase a Greddy header and modify the collector to a 2.5". This setup has been proven to produce the best power adder of the mass produced headers.
A Mugen header is a different story. If you are willing to pay 1000 dollars for a mugen header, you might as well buy a custom header for the same or less cost and make more power at the same time.

Exhaust:
Your preferance of an exhaust really depends on what kind of sound you want to make (loud, quiet...whatever) and the type of style muffler you want. To name a few of the popular exhausts: Apex'i N1, Greddy Evo, Apex'i WS, RSR....damnit i cant think of anymore at the time . Most exhaust in general have the same kind of design and generally make the same amount of power.
Custom exhausts are really nice and if you choose right, can really help you in the long run. 2.5" exhaust piping is NOT over-doing it, even on a stock motor. Thermal and Kteller come to mind when i think about quality and decent pricing. Their exhausts have a "stockish" look which many people really enjoy.

Pulleys:
You can pick up aftermarket, lightweight pulleys from AEM and Unorthodox Racing. These pulleys are designs to take power from your electronics and put it into the motor. With that your battery is more prone to dying if you like to run your stereo with the car off. I had a set of AEM's on my old lude and my window motors really had trouble rolling up the windows after installation of the AEM pulleys (power steering and alternator.)
I'm not too educated on the crank pulleys so if anyone would like to chime in on that, be my guest

TUNING:
As alot of you know, i could go on forever on this topic so i am going to do my best to keep this part short.
If you only have plans to do "basic" bolt ons a Vafc can work out just fine for you. Its not the greatest tune in the world but it can do some good. There are only like 30 something tuning points on a vafc so as you will see, that is very minimal compared to programs like hondata, crome, uberdata, AEM ems which have 1000+ tuning points. You may not use all the 1000+ points, but they are there if you want to use them. So now without further ado (sp?), i'm going to go into the more technical tuning programs or atleast a few of them.

Tuning via VAFC (piggyback):
The vafc, more commonly known as a hack, is a good tool for people who want the lowest budget tune you can buy. To save me from going off on a rant, click the provided link below and it will explain to you in full detail what an afc actually does. In short, an afc fools the map sensor into believing something is happening in which of course it is not.
http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin...sSuck - This article is written by Blunder (founder of pgmfi).

Tuning via modified stock ecu:
To run any of the following programs, you must have an OBDI ecu (p28/92-95 civic ex, p72/92-95 GSR integra; These are preferrable in most cases) that has been chipped/socketed and a basemap placed on the chip. In our case since this is the 5th gen forum, you will have to purchase an OBDIIa - OBDI conversion harness. I bought mine from http://www.boomslang.us.

Crome Tuning:
http://www.tunewithcrome.com. Crome has two programs. Crome freeware and crome Pro. The freeware version is of course free of cost and can be downloaded to your computer via the link above. Crome Pro is a program which you will purchase and if you would like to know the difference between the two, you can go to the site and look at the different features. Being that this is a free program, its not exactly the most user friendly like hondata is. You have to do alot of extra steps in this program where as with Hondata, you can push one button and the same thing will be done.
Here is a screen shot from my bin that i run on my car:


for anyone that actually knows how to read this. Its a VERY old bin and the numbers went fubar when i installed ITB tools. So dont really pay attention to the numbers


Hondata:
http://www.hondata.com. Hondata has a few programs. Them being the s100, s200 and the s300. As i said above, hondata is very user friendly and doesnt have the "kinks" that most freeware programs inhabit. What kinks you ask? Stupid things like a Check Engine Light popping up and there being no code. Hondata is very easy to obtain and alot of tuners have experience with it so finding a tuner who knows about it shouldnt be too hard. Hondata s300 is the best of their products. This is probably the most user friendly program on the market as on now. For more info, see the link above and you will see why its so great.

Neptune:
http://www.hrtuning.com. In my opinion, this is the greatest program out there right now. Although, the bad thing about his program is that you can only get it from a handful of people around the country. YET, those handful of people are among the best tuners in the country so thats gotta mean something.
Uberdata:
Pretty much the same thing as Crome. Uberdata was the first freeware program to hit the market. And with that, it has many more "bugs" than the other freeware programs due to so many people being able to get their hands on it.


Modified by 98vtec at 3:07 PM 6/8/2006

 

great info vtec, lots to think about now, i've got a AEM intake but the tract gets heat soaked quickly and when i come in the filter is warm to the touch so i have to fab up some kind of air box with an external feed first. am going to take the plunge and get a good exhaust manifold this week, quite fancied a DC sports but i might check out the greddy. thanx for all the help guys

 

greddy is ok. Just make sure you modify the collector to a larger 2.5"

 

personally, i would save my money for an s300, a p28 and the cost to socket and just buy a used aem ems. i know it's over kill, but for me, it'd be better to have it and not need it than need it than not have it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pizzamanprelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">am going to take the plunge and get a good exhaust manifold this week, quite fancied a DC sports but i might check out the greddy. thanx for all the help guys</TD></TR></TABLE>

DC is basically a bottom of the line header and Greddy is only one step above that. Not trying to be a dick, but those are by far not the best manifolds...

 

yeah honestly i mean not trying to be a dick as well but if you were thinking about going ITB's why are you looking at the bottom end header? do you think itb's only cost a few hundred bucks?

 

ITB's dont cost that much, it's the ECU to run them and all the dyno time that costs **** loads. About the headers, i know next to nothing about the honda tuning scene so i was just asking which guys on here which headers are reasonable quality at a reasonable price, they said greddy so that's what i've decided to look into. I think custom headers at over $1000 dollars is pretty excessive (especially since i bought the car for £3k here in scotland) If you know off any other headers or custom fabricators that make good quality parts then please share the info!

 

manufactured ITB's are $1600+

if you think a custom header is expensive you might want to reconsider going ITB's.

 

I was more thinking off fabbing my own, just simple ones with inboard injectors and maybe a sliding throttle plate instead off butterflies or else just using bike TB's as they're so cheap here in salvage yards. Fair enough if you want tuned length trumpets on them and exact internal diameters for the best possible performance then jenveys would be the way to go(and thats a way i would love to go!) but homemade throttle bodies are adequate for a good sports setup(not 140hp/ltr), what would be interesting would be whether DIY TB's made better power than DIY plenum intakes. i suspect not untill 7000rpm and may actually be down on power below that but who knows

 

good luck with that, i have spent over 700 on mine.

 

just checked your sig, your setup looks real good, are they bike bodies? how are you goin to deal with vacuum?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pizzamanprelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just checked your sig, your setup looks real good, are they bike bodies? how are you goin to deal with vacuum?</TD></TR></TABLE>

well i was going to be using the can that i made, but my buddy found 4 vac blocks already prethreaded on ebay for 25 bux shipped so I will use one of them and he will use one for his diy itb's and we will build the other two and likely sell them off.

of course they are bike throttles Came off a hayabusa.

 

i was looking at the greddy header and they only make it for 4th gens, i've got a 5th gen so i checked out the DTR header and your right vtec, from the website the product looks like it was purpose built for the job and not just a generic design such as DC sports plus the dyno sheets speaks for itself, going to throw an e-mail out in the next day or so for a quote on shipping, thanks for all the help