Hi,

This year, I went from koni sports to SPSS3 valved 8041 race shocks, and currently running them with GC 450F/650R, 24mm rear progress bar, no FSB. Chassis is a 5th gen hatch. Tires are rt615 on 7 inches konigs, alignment is 0 toe all around and camber from (I would say 2.5 to 3 inches lowered) a standard lowered 5th gen civic, around -2.5 front and -1.5 rear.

Problem is : the front of the car has too much body roll and I am lifting the inside rear wheel too much for my taste. The rotation is quite good, even with the bar set to full soft.

I am on a budget concerning the suspension, $ was spent to be able to run the car this summer and the rest will be for university. So I would like to avoid the solution of buying springs.

Solutions, please comment this is where I need you :

A. Switching springs around (650F/450R); put the rear bar to full stiff and call it a day. I am scared to go that route in term of rotation. Would this set up still give me as much rotation as initially w/o the front body roll problem ?

B. Adding a front swaybar (OEM Si) and going stiffer with the rear bar.

(C. You absolutely need new springs in the front) <- Do you really think so ?

Car is used for lapping and rarely solo2. If you suggest trying new rates, I would like to stay under 800 lbs springs because the car goes to the track on its own, plus Quebec (canada) tracks are rough.

Thanks !

Patrick - who's stuck between rotation, front body roll and rough tracks.

 

If you are lifting the inside rear more than you'd like, you definitely don't want to set the rear bar stiffer.

How does the car feel as far as brake dive is concerned? You have no front swaybar and a big honkin rear one, and you're complaining of too much roll in front and too much wheel lift in back... well there's your answer right there buddy! I'd go with a nice and cheap OEM front swaybar and pick up an ITR or other 22mm rear swaybar...

Try this first, and if it doesn't make enough of an improvement, then it's time to either up the front swaybar a little bit more or maybe put in 500 or 550lbs/in front springs.

 

is this car daily driven?

i'd look into a set of 800 lb springs to run in the rear and bring the 650's up front.

i don't like dialing in all of the rotation through swaybar settings, so option 1 is out. I also like the feel of no front sway, but adding a very small one might help with the body roll without sacrificing rotation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i don't like dialing in all of the rotation through swaybar settings, so option 1 is out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is it bad to go that way ? I used to run H&R Race with koni sports for the winter, believe it or not, I was able to get correct rotation with the progress bar (last track event of the year) even with those sloppy springs. I still think that option 1 would be the best route. But I am looking for your opinions.

As far as nose diving when braking is concerned, it is acceptable. I am used to stiffer springs (550-600) in the front, maybe that's why i feel the lack of springs.


More comments are welcome,

Pat

 

Reduce rear rebound to help get rid wheel lift.

Why do you say you have too much body-roll?

 

I have the same car (95 eg si) and my setup has varied slightly from last year to this year but bodyroll and rotation were never an issue. Last year I ran 600f/500r with OEM si front sway and progress 22mm rear on koni sport "race" shocks. My inside rear would almost never lift more than an inch or two and the car was always VERY flat. This year I began daily driving the car so I swapped the rear springs to 330's. That's right, 600f/330r and the car behaves very much the same as it did last year, although much easier on the backside now.

I would recommend just getting an OEM fron bar and see what happens...

(&lt;&lt;----- Very old picture)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why do you say you have too much body-roll? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Evident feeling and pictures.

I am not very low and would like to avoid bottoming out the wonderfull konis. 450lbs springs allow too much body roll in the front; i'll try to post pics when I am back home.

I think that i'll try to reverse springs...and add a front bar. I already have the front Si swaybar but waiting on the front LCAs to make the installation.

I will also try to reduce rear rebound, running the race shocks at 50% in the rear atm. But the bar makes the rear wheel lift pretty early into it's bodyroll motion, so it really feels like I need more roll resistance in the front. Correct me if I interpret this wrong.

Anymore inputs concerning your set-ups or suggestion is appreciated.

Pat

 

If I were running 650 lbs-in rears, I'd have at least 550 up front and some sort of front bar.

Why not try option A and see how it goes? You won't have to buy any parts and you can always change it back if you don't like it.

 

Swapping springs isn't going to do much for reducing body roll...terminal roll angle depends on your total roll stiffness. With those 450s in the back your rear swaybar is going to smile as it lifts your wheel off the group even more. Course it doens't hurt to try, things work out differently in practice sometimes.

 

Having a low rear rebound can lift wheels, but it depends on when he's lifting as to wether that has anything to do iwth it or not. If he's lifting a wheel going in it's probably not the rear rebound.

You say that the front is rolling too much, do you have shock travels? I know a lot of opinions will differ but personally I wouldn't spend any more money on it until you have shock travels to verify what the assometer readings. It could be that the rear is too stiff and the front is perfect. You'll never know without shock travels.

I don't like using sways. If it were my car I's probably put the stock rear sway back on first, and record the assometer readings and the shcok travels. Then I would see what to change or adjust.

 

GSpeedR, altough I did not measure it precisely (or did the tie-wrap test), I am pretty sure I have enough shock travel (I would say around an inch). It doesn't feel like it's riding on bumpstops either. But, I am totally willing to raise the car up and try it out to see if that could be a problem.

In fact, I just started to swap them springs around. I will give it a try that way : 650F/450R, and play more with shock rebound, rear bar adjustment and tire pressure if rotation is a problem. Hopefully this will solve a part of the complaint. I will also get front Si LCA to install the front swaybar I already have around.

Should I worry about coil binding with a 6 inches spring in the front ?

Pat

 

Wheel lift: forces at the wheel are additive, so look at what forces tend to lift the inside wheel...rebound damping and swaybar. The damper is an easy change to see if it makes a difference. A short rear spring may be part of the problem. Once the spring is fully extended the damper will have no problem picking up tires. Why so short in the rear? For ride height?

Using zip-ties to measure suspension can be misleading since you'll think you have more front roll than rear roll because the car will pitch more than it squats.

 

you might think you have shock travel, but if you're lowered 2.5", you don't. more spring, more front bar. ditch rear camber for rotation.

 

PAT!!! listen to me

600 fonts, oem bar up front...work from there.

1/8 toe out up front, and unless you have shorten boddies you want to get that car's ride hight up a bit cause with the 400 up fronts u are definatly not using all the suspension you can.

 

thanks guys,

I just installed the 650 up front and 450 in the rear. I'll set the rear bar to 50% and work from there (lapping event this sunday). I will also install the front bar as soon as I get my hands on some LCAs.

SoloX : Honnestly, I thought I had enough travel. Altough, I am setting the car higher today to try it out. I thought 8041 race shocks were optimal with that height, i guess they are when springs aren't that soft.

Victor : I was waiting for a reply from you, thanks. When are you taking the wife's RSX to one of our event ?

Back outside setting car's height.

Keep the suggestion coming.

 

the shortened shocks just make it so the shock, control arm and tire (if you are running a 23" diameter tire) all bottom out at the same time. for an eg that is lowered 2.5", 650lb front springs are too soft.

a short spring or long spring of the same spring rate will compress/extend the same amount if the same weight is put on it or removed from it, up to the point of coil bind. your wheel lift is not being caused by too short of a spring, rather too little front roll stiffness and combined roll/dive stiffness. increasing front spring rate will both increase roll stiffness and decrease dive. adding a front bar will just increase roll stiffness.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STN_Pat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Is it bad to go that way ? I used to run H&R Race with koni sports for the winter, believe it or not, I was able to get correct rotation with the progress bar (last track event of the year) even with those sloppy springs. I still think that option 1 would be the best route. But I am looking for your opinions.

As far as nose diving when braking is concerned, it is acceptable. I am used to stiffer springs (550-600) in the front, maybe that's why i feel the lack of springs.


More comments are welcome,

Pat
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've found that big rear bar and soft rear rates leads to a sort on/off brand of rotation, which is sometimes hard to control/drive confidently. of course, it could be different for your EG, since my rear suspension geometry is different...

also, i'm a little confused about this:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GspeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wheel lift: forces at the wheel are additive, so look at what forces tend to lift the inside wheel...rebound damping and swaybar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

isn't the sway bar keeping the inside wheel planted? since the outside of the swaybar is being loaded downward, isn't the lever arm of the inside side of the sway prone to follow? if the stiffness of the sway was infinite, wouldn't it basically prevent the inside rear from lifting, period? (given you had infinite grip)

 

bad-monkey, I've ran H&R race springs with the bar and no front bar twice on the local track I know well, and rotation was present et pleasant. It was very easy to control. H&R race spring rate balance is comparable to 650/450I think (they felt like 500F/350R with a comfort zone). The bar was set to full stiff. I'll be able to tell more about how it handles on sunday.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the shortened shocks just make it so the shock, control arm and tire (if you are running a 23" diameter tire) all bottom out at the same time. for an eg that is lowered 2.5", 650lb front springs are too soft.

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nate, what would you consider a "stiff enough" spring for the 2.5 lowered chassis ? 750 + ?

 

You are adding something to measure shock travel while you're swapping things around right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bad-monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">isn't the sway bar keeping the inside wheel planted? since the outside of the swaybar is being loaded downward, isn't the lever arm of the inside side of the sway prone to follow? if the stiffness of the sway was infinite, wouldn't it basically prevent the inside rear from lifting, period? (given you had infinite grip)</TD></TR></TABLE>

If the swaybar has infinite stiffness then you will extend the inside spring exactly the same amount that you compress the outside spring. Think of a swaybar as a "U" which many of them are. If the U is infinitely stiff and you pull up on one end, it will pull up on the other end. the outside wheel compresses which pulls up on the U. UC?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ewaugh &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You are adding something to measure shock travel while you're swapping things around right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

What, like a potentiometer?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STN_Pat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Nate, what would you consider a "stiff enough" spring for the 2.5 lowered chassis ? 750 + ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

that's a good place to start. i'm running 850's up front with a stock front bar. with 700's and a itr front bar i couldn't run the car low enough to get the static camber i wanted. i was at a little less then 2" lower then stock with the 700's. now i'm about 2.5" lower then stock on the 850's and 100lbs lighter.

nate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ewaugh &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You are adding something to measure shock travel while you're swapping things around right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

what do you mean ? No I didn't.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSpeedR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What, like a potentiometer?</TD></TR></TABLE>

More like an O-ring. It's a little better than a zip-tie because it doesn't have the big lump in one spot, but a zip-tie works, too.