I'm thinking of getting the suspension techniques...I guess they only offer one kit for the 92-95 Civic EX Coupe. Is there anything better that's not much more? How much has anyone payed for the susp tech kit? easy install?

 

Definatly a good mod, I put mine on with 100,000+mi oe shocks and springs, and they made a great difference in handling. cost should be around 300 for a set. Will the car be used for street only or do you autoX or hpdes. For a street car the ST bars will make the car a ton more neutral than stock, but it will still understeer when at the limit, I am going to remove my front ST bar and replace it with my stock bar. There are many other setups avalible for the civic, so dont limit your self to the ST set.

 

For track use, HPDE's and such, and even some auto-x's, would you recommend a stiff rear anti-sway bar only? I've heard both front and back pretty much negate each other out, or am I hearing wrong?

 

save your money on the bars and spend it on schools instead. Mods arent worth anything if you cant take advantage of them.

Ryan

 

Well, I know I'm no hotshot, but I think I could greatly benefit from having a car with good handling NOW, so that I could bring it to a driving school and learn how to take advantage of it. Otherwise I'm going to be an expert at driving a rolling, plowing beast and what good is that going to do me when I get a neutral/oversteering car that is "tighter than a 12 year old (back injury)" to quote an ad I recently saw
Though, I totally agree that a driving school is worth the money and will be in my near future.
So, if I get the suspension techniques kit; the handling will be more neutral? Will it have oversteer when turning hard with little or no throttle? $300's good for that kit?

 

False.

Driving a car that has a tendency to have alot of body roll (which is not a bad thing - miatas have lots of it) and understeer at first will force you to be smooth and maintain momentum - skills that will become critical as you upgrade the car or drive a faster car.

A car will only understeer in a corner if you dive into it going to fast, or mash the throttle coming out of it. Sway bars wont correct this problem, only driver training.

Ryan

 

I have to agree that you're better off driving it stock first. My car is still stock, and I've been learning how to control, be smooth, etc. as is because at this point, the engineers who built the car are better engineers than I am a driver. I think it helps to learn the limits of stock before you modify so you can approach new modifications with more of a sense of what's changed, so you know exactly what the mod did for you, what could be better, etc. Not only that, I thought that if I modified now, the modifications may lower my times, but they may be covering up some mistakes I don't feel.
As for the sway bars, if you decide to get them, then I would go with a bigger rear bar first. I'm not sure what the diameters are for the bar you're looking at, but I *think* 19mm is a pretty big bar for the Civic. If you daily drive, be careful not to get too big a bar since oversteer can be more dangerous on the road when you're used to understeering.

 

I have a 99 civic ex coupe, and I put in the upper fromt bar. It sure helped, the feel from steeringwheel to wheeels is much more direct, and i used to have to be exremely smooth on every corner entry so that the car wouldn't "rebound".
But the bars defenetly don't take the understeering away, and to really feel a big difference you will have to take it closer to the limit and that will take schooling.
What really improved handling in my car was stiffer shockabsorbers, and the first thing you need is good tires.

 

When the car rolls, it has a tendency to take pressure off of the outside wheel and reduces your traction. How can this be good in any car? I see where all of you are coming from and that learning to drive a stock car can be beneficial so you realize what different mods do and to not cover up deficencies in driving technique, and I totally agree...however, I feel that I could really benefit from sway bars to make my car a bit more neutral handling, though I agree that dropping a bunch of money to make my car have the ability to handle well would be stupid if I can't take advantage of it and I won't be adding anything else for a while till I know what I really need, for sure.

Colt- You say that installing the front anti-roll bar didn't take away the understeer...that makes sense to me, because as I understand it, that's the job of a rear strut bar.

One a related note...what kind of cars do you guys have? I can guess with Type-RJ, what about you steppin? I'd assume that the Type-R handles a bit better 'stock' than my car...another issue is that my car already falls into Street Prepared C, so I'm with cars like the Type-R, because I have slotted rotors (which I know doesn't help much for autocross, but their brembos and I got them for next to nothing, anyway) and an intake which bumps me up from stock...so, I'll eventually need a fair bit of mods to be competitive.
Thanks for the opinions, guys!

 

Body roll doesn't cause the reduction in weight on the outside tire. Weight transfer causes the reduction in weight on the outside tire. Body roll is just a noticeable side-effect of the weight transfer. There are only 3 ways to reduce the amount of weight transfered in a turn: 1. lower the height of the CG, 2)widen the track width of the car, 3)reduce the weight of the car.
Anti-roll bars reduce body roll and change how the weight transfer is distributed.

If you can, then go with what the other guys have said and wait on the bar until you have more experience. The increased body roll will just make you smoother later. You will get a lot more out of driving it stock then just being able to tell what the different mods will do to your car. You will be smoother, and have better car control later. And, you don't have to "relearn" how to drive if you learn on stock then set the car up for neutral steering...you'll just be a smoother driver, which is what you want no matter how your car is set up. Getting modifications done before learning just means that the car is better able to make up for driver mistakes...so if you've modded you won't know you're making mistakes, if you don't mod you'll be able to realize it and make corrections.


Oh, strut bars aren't for changing understeer/oversteer characteristics...the anti-roll bars will do that...strut bars increase steering response...


[Modified by Bampf, 7:45 PM 4/14/2002]


[Modified by Bampf, 10:43 PM 4/14/2002]

 

I like the added roll stiffness when I hit VTEC.

 

A bigger front sway bar would increase understeer.

I have a Prelude. My main problem on course is smoothness. I hit the brake and gas too hard. The result is losing grip early, which means I never reach the limit of the car because I've asked the tires for too much. No matter what mods I'd have, this would slow me down.
If you're happy with your driving, then a rear sway bar would be something to get in CSP. It'll help get the tail around in corners. The most important thing to be competitive though, would be an LSD if you can afford it.

 

My main problem on course is smoothness. I hit the brake and gas too hard. The result is losing grip early, which means I never reach the limit of the car because I've asked the tires for too much. No matter what mods I'd have, this would slow me down.
You can upgrade your suspension all you want, but if you hit the brakes and gas too hard, you will always have understeer or oversteer problems (depending). If you have a problem with smoothness then I agree with driving your car stock for a while; once you've got that under control, you will notice by yourself the upgrades you require, and not only for suspension.
I do think that you should buy a set of good tires anyway, I think that's a must; you will get a lot more out of your car, even stock, by changing your tires.

 

That's what I said...if there was any confusion..."a product of the rear anti-sway bar is less understeer, more oversteer"="A bigger front sway bar would increase understeer. "

So, everyone is saying drive more...how much is enough driving time before I should be able to modify things, just when I have a feel for the car? I think I have a pretty good feel for my car, though this was my first autocross. I experiment with my car alot and do alot of hard driving in parking lots and in the country when I get a chance; taught myself to heel-toe shift, oversteer/drift with the parking brake...speaking of such things...parking brake seems to only really have a place in rally driving, but what about left foot braking? good for inducing a bit of oversteer?

 

You said there are only three ways to change weight transfer...listed three things and then said that anti-roll bars shange weight transfer(being a fourth thing), that seems to have made a confusion of what you were saying...anyway, I was referring to body roll to describe the weight transfer that takes pressure off the tire, I understand that the roll is really an effect of the weight transfer, but if you eliminate the body roll you will most likely eliminate A PORTION of the weight transfer, though it's possible that it could be a function of some other part of the suspension.

 

You should modify the car when it is slowing you down, not the other way around.

 

I said that anti-roll bars change the weight transfer <U>distribution</U>, not the overall amount of weight transfered. The anti-roll bars don't change how much weight transfers...

We're just giving you our advice here...it's your car, so you can do what you want to it...

Steppin Razor was saying that about front anti-roll bars increasing understeer because in one of your posts you said that the front strut bar increases understeer.


Anyway, if you are going to get stiffer anti-roll bars I would go with a 19mm rear bar for your car. Hold off on the front bar for now...just put the rear bar on and feel what the change is and get used to that first. Suspension Techniques makes a 19mm, and I think that Neuspeed makes one as well. The ST bar will be cheaper than the Neuspeed.

I would also suggest that you stop using the e-brake like that...you're messing up your tires...


[Modified by Bampf, 10:16 AM 4/15/2002]

 

sorry about that, I wasn't saying it was my problem, I was quoting "stepping_razor" but something went wrong


[Modified by Colt, 5:19 PM 4/15/2002]

 

The bars will reduce your lateral weight transfer, reducing rolling. But front/rear weight transfer is not reduced (is this what you mean by change in weight distribution Bampf ?), that's what you have to focus on when entering and exiting a corner.

 

Anti sway bars will not reduce lateral weight transfer, repeat will not, they only reduce the effects of weight transfer, body roll. The weight is still transferred and will be until you 3. Reduce the total weight of the vehicle. 1. Lower the height of the CG. 2. Widen the track width of the car and or its wheelbase. 4. Or you change the path or line driven! Basic stuff.


[Modified by DB1-R81, 10:33 AM 4/15/2002]

 

The bars will <u>not</u> reduce your lateral weight transfer. They will reduce body roll though, but not by reducing weight transfer.

The weight distribution that I'm talking about is kinda hard to explain. Let's assume you've got a car with a suspension that has a roll stiffness of 100 (your front roll stiffness is 70 and rear roll stiffness is 30). When your car is in a turn, the front "takes" 70% of the weight transferred and the rear takes 30%. Now, if you increase the roll stiffness of the rear to 60 (double it) you have 70 front and 60 rear (130 total). Now the front is only taking 54% of the transferred weight and the rear is taking 46%. The total weight transferred doesn't change, just the percentages of that total at each end of the car.
That's what I mean by changing the lateral weight transfer distribution. This is why getting a stiffer rear bar without changing the front will decrease understeer...


[Modified by Bampf, 4:20 PM 4/15/2002]

 

Yes, sway bars increase lateral load transfer, this is why you see cars with big sway bars lifting the inside tire. The load is transferred directly to the outside wheel. The sway bar basically bypasses the spring with this load. Load is what the tires see, not what you see in body roll.


[Modified by Tom351, 1:46 PM 4/15/2002]

 

i would recommend copying the civic and integra type Rs. both are based on YOUR platform although the ctr has the same wheelbase, honda engineered it to work great on the track and still be streetable, i'd copy what they did.
they did the work for you already.
from my own personal experience, the rear sway bar made a huge difference in handling characteristic improvement.
AND i can go MUCH FASTER through corners on teh street at least, b/c before my car'd plow at teh drop of a hat, now it will only plow if you enter WAY too fast, or exit with too much throttle (NO LSD SUCKS). A front heavy ff needs to take weight off the inner rear to avoid the excessive understeer, lessening rear grip makes the car rotate, keeps the front planted.
I'd get a gsr front bar, ITR rear bar, although you'll need integra (or civic EX SEDAN) LCAs as well.
It seems that setup works great, and is fairly cheap, and mounting is nice, unlike many of the aftermarket bars, like ST where the damn front bar hangs down SO low, and the kit uses crappy mouting brackets on teh front LCA/rear shock bolt.
I duno what real life performance difference you'd see b/w the gsr/itr kit vs the ST or whoever's, but i know the honda parts are nicer in my opinion, and were engineered for perfomance driving on the same chassis as you have.
-steve

 

good call EG8 about the type-r's...aside from having rear disks(and different control arms) and all...is there anything else in the suspension that's different between my car and the ctr, than the springs, dampers, swaybars, strut tower bar(s),wheels?

IMO...pretty sketchy that SOME of you guys are giving definitive answers that are contradictory about the role and effects of the suspension components...it makes it apparent that (atleast) one of you needs to get off the box. Not trying to flame, just trying to calm it down and get some good info.

 

Bampf is right. Re-read what he says.

From: EG8steve
Heh.. I think that reinforces the previous "learn to drive" sentiment.

If this were a "chassis tuning" group, we'd all be spewing advice on which bars/parts to use. Since this is a Competition forum, many are trying to give you advice that will make you the most competitive down the road. I know the urge to modify is strong, though.

It's your car, enjoy driving it safely. But please try not to get mad or offended at the members of this forum giving what they feel is the best advice for your competitive driving development, even if it may seem condescending because it may not be what you expected/wanted to hear.