ive searched h-t and the internet for a while now while waiting on parts for my car. i have a set of toda c's. now they have pretty big lift/duration, why do they not make any power? and why does everyone that posts about them say they were dissapointed?

the only thing i noticed about them whem comparing to other cams, is that the intake and exhaust cam are the same size, whereas any other company has a smaller exhaust cam. could this be why they lack in power?

do you think if i perhaps tried the toda intake cam, and some other kinda exhuast cam with a little smaller lift/duration they would make more power? i was thinking of trying that first and if it doesnt work out then just selling them and buying some skunk2 pro2's.

this has been bugging me for a long time now, and its kinda holding me back on what cam to choose. i want something that will suit this motor perfect. mid-high end power. and so far the skunk pro2's are looking like the right choice.

what do i do lol???? i dont have very much experience with any of this just what i have been researching. this is my first all motor build other than the stock gsr in my car now .


the setup is:

85mm gsr
89mm stroke
1"deckplate
custom 6.3777" cunningham rods
custom arias 13.5:1 cr pistons with a 7cc dome.
rmf narrow header 2.5"

head is fully ported and polished, REV SS valves/springs, crower retainers, manley keepers etc..

i will be using a custom made intake manifold, with a 70mm throttle body, short ram, and a prototype v-stack


Modified by B18 CYA at 8:07 AM 5/19/2006

 

I would have to disagree...the bigger duration the more air can get in and out of the motor. the more air you can get in and out of your motor..makes it better to breath and therfore more horsepower....but we all have our own opinions...I was looking though at some1s dyno numbers on the skunk2 pro1s and they had some really good gains on those...everything else was stock I believe...

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1632853


here is that link if you havent looked at them yet..good luck on finding a good set of cams...I am stuck on purchasing the toda Spec B's..I like thier cam lifts and durations than any other cam I have studied on....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16nonoy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1632853


here is that link if you havent looked at them yet..good luck on finding a good set of cams...I am stuck on purchasing the toda Spec B's..I like thier cam lifts and durations than any other cam I have studied on.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks for the link, but i already looked at that, and for my compression those cams are to small. i would need the pro2's.

 

I see...my compression on my pistons are 11.5:1..my head has been milled and my block resurfaced twice...I might get up to 12:1 on my setup with my head gasket...not sure...but I am hoping the Spec Bs will be good...if not I will remember your words and bang my head inside the wall...

 

well todd, sounds like you bought a set of cams you didn't really want in the first place . The toda's should provide some awesome numbers, and judging from a comparison that i cant seem to find(sk2 pro2s vs. pro1s vs stage 2s) and the link listed here (pro1s vs spec c) you'd probably make similar power to the pro2s with the toda cams anyways. I think you'd be very satisfied with the output of the cams you have right now, but good luck with whatever you decide .

I cant wait to see/hear your car in person, hopefully its road ready soon.

 

There are other cam manufactures that have "square" profiles, same numbers intake and exhaust and have made allot of power with them like that. I personally would sell the C's for some outrageous price(because some fool will pay for them) and buy either the Pro2's or the M24x.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are other cam manufactures that have "square" profiles, same numbers intake and exhaust and have made allot of power with them like that. I personally would sell the C's for some outrageous price(because some fool will pay for them) and buy either the Pro2's or the M24x.</TD></TR></TABLE>

vteckidd had some good comparisions of the skunk's and those made awsome power on his motor which is pretty similar (sorta)

well when i first bought them i thought they were gonna be great, there pretty big cams. but then i started to look into them alot more and no one seems to have any success with them.

do you think i can reach my goal of 240whp on the todas? i dont think its ever been done. right now those pro2s are looking pretty good, someone here just got them on a 13:1 type r, i will see how they work out for him first also!

 

I love my Toda C's. I think that 222 Dynojet WHP out of a 1.8 liter motor on 91 octane pump gas qualifies as success.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b19coupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I love my Toda C's. I think that 222 Dynojet WHP out of a 1.8 liter motor on 91 octane pump gas qualifies as success.</TD></TR></TABLE>

how much compression do uhave ?

 

He has 11.5:1

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1622680

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildoutwhitegsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">He has 11.5:1

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1622680</TD></TR></TABLE>

hehe i see that your looking for some spec c's

hmm.. do you think they would still be ok for my compression since mines 13.5:1 which is quite a bit higher than 11.5?

 

I have a very slightly used pair of Rocket Motorsports M24X cams that would be more ideal for your compression ratio. My compression is not as high as yours and these cams are useless in my engine. I sent you an IM.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18 CYA &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hehe i see that your looking for some spec c's

hmm.. do you think they would still be ok for my compression since mines 13.5:1 which is quite a bit higher than 11.5?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It depends on the cams you choose and there ABDC spec. You would like to increase from stock ITR/GSR cranking pressure of about 15-23%. This depending on the head your using.

I say 15-23% because below 15% your overcammed and above 23% your undercammed.


So it all depends on the cams ABDC spec. I'm searching for the Toda C's spec right now.


I've decided that I'm sticking with the Skunk 2 PRO 1's for my build.

The calculator used to determine your cranking pressure compared to stock http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm


Edited because I had the info backwards!


Modified by wildoutwhitegsr at 4:04 PM 5/19/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildoutwhitegsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It depends on the cams you choose and there ABDC spec. You would like to increase from stock ITR/GSR cranking pressure of about 15-23%. This depending on the head your using.

I say 15-23% because below 15% your undercammed and above 23% your overcammed.


So it all depends on the cams ABDC spec. I'm searching for the Toda C's spec right now.


I've decided that I'm sticking with the Skunk 2 PRO 1's for my build.

The calculator used to determine your cranking pressure compared to stock http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm </TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks for the info... the head is from my jdm gsr. i guess i didnt put that up there lol...

im gonna keep looking into this some more also

 

Found it

TODA C @1mm
intake OPEN 22.5 btdc
close 52.5 ABDC
CENTER LOBE 105 degree

exhaust OPEN 52.5 BBDC
close 22.5 ATDC
CENTER LOBE 105 degree

Link here https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=756869


So with your motor specs you listed above and the Toda C cams this is your result


Camshaft, Rod Length, Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression

Your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.3465 inches, stroke 3.5039 inches, rod c-c length 6.3777 inches, with a static compression ratio of 13.5 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 52.5 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 40.40 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 2.97 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 11.60 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 255.30 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 11.60 :1.

Knowledge is power.

So with a ABDC spec of 52.5 you have a cranking pressure of 255.30 PSI. That's a 27% increase in cranking pressure, so your slightly undercammed with the Toda C's


To be more accurate, do you know the altitude of the area you live in? If it's a high number that will lower your crank psi.


I also edited my post above, because I switched the overcam, undercam info by accident. It's correct now

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildoutwhitegsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Found it

TODA C @1mm
intake OPEN 22.5 btdc
close 52.5 ABDC
CENTER LOBE 105 degree

exhaust OPEN 52.5 BBDC
close 22.5 ATDC
CENTER LOBE 105 degree

Link here https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=756869


So with your motor specs you listed above and the Toda C cams this is your result


Camshaft, Rod Length, Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression

Your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.3465 inches, stroke 3.5039 inches, rod c-c length 6.3777 inches, with a static compression ratio of 13.5 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 52.5 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 40.40 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 2.97 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 11.60 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 255.30 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 11.60 :1.

Knowledge is power.

So with a ABDC spec of 52.5 you have a cranking pressure of 255.30 PSI. That's a 27% increase in cranking pressure, so your slightly undercammed with the Toda C's


To be more accurate, do you know the altitude of the area you live in? If it's a high number that will lower your crank psi.


I also edited my post above, because I switched the overcam, undercam info by accident. It's correct now</TD></TR></TABLE>

thats some good info. i will check what my altitude is where i am. im pretty sure were right about sea level or something. i will edit in a few mins!


edit-- where i am i found that Its elevation ranges from 180 to 270 m (600 to 900 ft) above sea level.

i guess i was wrong lol


Modified by B18 CYA at 9:30 PM 5/19/2006

 

I'm not sure why people always say that Toda Cams suck, I've been running mine for 3 years now, and absolutely love them.

 

Ok I went ahead and searched for the Skunk 2 PRO 2 cam specs and this is what I found.


Skunk 2 PRO 2 Camshaft Specs

Intake
270/12.8 @1mm /0.000" lash

Exhaust
276/12.0 @1mm /0.000" lash

Tappet Clearance
Intake: 0.007" (cold)
Exhaust: 0.008" (cold)

Intake:
Opening: 31 BTDC
Peak Lift: 99 ATDC
Closing: 46 ABDC

Exhaust:
Opening: 58 BBDC
Peak Lift: 106 BTDC
Closing: 25 ATDC

Found here https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1316627

Now with this info we can clearly see already that the PRO 2 cams are even worse of a cam for your setup.

I'll go ahead and enter the specs anyway into the calculator.

This is what I got


Camshaft, Rod Length, Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression

Your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.3465 inches, stroke 3.5039 inches, rod c-c length 6.3777 inches, with a static compression ratio of 13.5 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 46 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 40.40 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 3.09 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 12.02 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 266.95 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 12.02 :1.

Knowledge is power.


Giving you a cranking pressure of 266.95PSI That's a 33% increase in cranking pressure


So the Toda C's are the better choice for you

 

toda : Your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.3465 inches, stroke 3.5039 inches, rod c-c length 6.3777 inches, with a static compression ratio of 13.5 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 52.5 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 40.40 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 2.97 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 11.48 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 251.98 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 11.48 :1.

Knowledge is power.


skunk pro2:

Your engine summary is as follows: Bore 3.3465 inches, stroke 3.5039 inches, rod c-c length 6.3777 inches, with a static compression ratio of 13.5 :1. Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 46 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).

Your chamber volume is 40.40 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 3.09 inches. Your dynamic compression ratio is 11.90 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length. Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 263.61 PSI. Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and 0 PSI is 11.90 :1.


thats both at 600ft.

why would the todas be better? with the skunks i would have more usable stroke, and have a higher compression? im kinda new at this whole cam thing lol

WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN LOL


Modified by B18 CYA at 9:44 PM 5/19/2006

 

The only wat the above formula's work for cranking pressure is if you have VTEC engaged. You need the specs of the primary lobes to use the "cranking" pressure numbers. Of cousre the VE of you head and where you place cam timing, give you the dynamic compression when the engine is running.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18 CYA &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what about with my altitude in there now?

why would the todas be better? with the skunks i would have more usable stroke, and have a higher compression? im kinda new at this whole cam thing lol</TD></TR></TABLE>


Your altitude will only lower it and couple PSI, nothing big. That is unless you live on top of a mountain It's just more accurate, that's all.


Higher compression on it's own doesn't net you much horsepower at all. I can't remember the exact number, but for every compression increase you gain like .6 horsepower. Can somebody help me on the exact number please.


It's all about the correct packaging. Like there's no point in having such big cams, if your induction system can't keep up. Ie flow enough air into the engine at those lifts. Like head porting, intake, intake manifold, throttle body...

Then on top of that, if you happen to have the correct induction system working for you at those lifts, you need to have the correct exhaust system as well. Ie header, cat/test pipe/cat-back system.

Then you have to worry about undercamming your motor and over camming your motor.

If you undercam your motor, it moves your powerband range lower, so as the rpms increase your torque drops off and you begin to loose momentum.

If you overcam your motor, it moves the powerband up too high. So when you start off it feels like the motors lugging around. Then as the rpms increase all of a sudden the motor feels like it's awaken and starts to pull.

It's all a balance.


Then on top of that, you have to try and figure out what cams will give you a powerband range that makes the most torque at your rpm landing points after you shift.

I'm not sure what you mean, when you say the skunks will give you more useable stroke...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only wat the above formula's work for cranking pressure is if you have VTEC engaged. You need the specs of the primary lobes to use the "cranking" pressure numbers. Of cousre the VE of you head and where you place cam timing, give you the dynamic compression when the engine is running.</TD></TR></TABLE>

and whats this 33% above stock pressure mean undercamming, overcamming etc?

edit -- this is what i mean "or effective stroke is 3.09 inches" - skunk, "or effective stroke is 2.97 inches" - toda?

 

DonF couldn't you use the about calculator for comparing whether your overcamming and undercamming though?


I think all the specs I used were all on the vtec lobe, but that's only if the links I found were correct and for the vtec lobe.

Your abosolutly right on the cam timing and the dynamic compression. I'm just trying to use it to determine overcamed and undercammed. Since some can't advance the cam timing enough to make up for the lost in cylinder pressure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildoutwhitegsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">DonF couldn't you use the about calculator for comparing whether your overcamming and undercamming though?


I think all the specs I used were all on the vtec lobe, but that's only if the links I found were correct and for the vtec lobe.

Your abosolutly right on the cam timing and the dynamic compression. I'm just trying to use it to determine overcamed and undercammed. Since some can't advance the cam timing enough to make up for the lost in cylinder pressure.</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2