skunk2 stage2 cams (not pro series) skunk2 cam gears. pasted this in a new topic since im getting no replies in my build thread and would like to keep it on topic anyway.

when installing the cams, i pretty much just lined them up to TDC based on the holes in the cam, lining up with the holes in the oil plate thing (plate on top of the cam holders). now on the stock cams and gears, when everything is at TDC, the arrows point up, the timing marks on the gears meet and are next to each other, and those holes line up. but on the setup now with the skunk2 stg2 cams and skunk2 gears, the holes on the cams are lined up with the holes on the oil plate, and the indentation on the gears (synonomous with the "UP" arrows on stock gears i assume) are directly up, but the marks on the gears are not lined up, they are alost exactly 1 tooth off from each other i believe. yes, the cam gears are set to 0,0. is this the correct TDC setting? or do i have to line up the timing marks on the gears to match each other?

so which is the correct TDC setting? by the holes? or by the marks?

 

You should be lining them up with the horizontal dots or lines (my gears have dots). The up is just the general direction of up, line them up with the "side" makers. Having them at 0,0 or 5,-5 makes no difference when lining them up, since you're lining the outer gear anyways.

 

ok, so i know the head and/or block has been milled some. only problem is that i dont know how much. i just took the block to the machine shop and told them to deck it if it needed it, and i really cant see the deck being warped that much. compression calculators say i should have .026 ish PDH, but looking at it the pistons are almost perfectly flush with the deck effectively .000 PDH. i dont have the proper tools to measure it and im not gonna waste my time buying them. and i dont know how much to advance (its advance right?, not retard?) the gears to get everything back to the correct timing. i did some rough calculations based on how much the crank was off from its TDC mark when the cam gears were at TDC. i came out with like 3.5 degrees. that seems like alot to me. and i dont know if i should trust it. i was as accurate as possible and i measured with a good ruler (very accurate steel one) (in mm) the distance from the center of the crank to the end of the end of the timing mark on the lower cover (approx 117mm) and then i measure the amount of diflect the crank was off from that mark (approx 7mm). basic trig tan^-1(7/117) = 3.42 degrees.

to me this seems like a lot has been milled, comes out to about .040 (i saw something in another thread about .012 = 1 degree, correct?) total off block and head. and raises the question on how tight the clearances are going to be in my motor. i already have the head bolted down. and im not buying that 200 dollar cam degreeing kit just to use it once.

the setup:

B18C1 block
GSR head
skunk2 stage 2 cams (not pro series)
JDM ITR pistons .25mm OS
OEM head gasket

should i be worried about clearances? am i right to retard cam gears 3.5 degrees? is there a way to check the clearances without that expensive kit? anyone in the baltimore area (i dont mind driving a small distance) have a kit i could borrow? or rent? or will i be fine with the setup? how much range for cam adjustability will i have when it comes to tuning?

i REALLY dont want to have to take the head off. as id have to then get another headgasket, and im just trying to finish this up. ive seen either Tbone or dan ruddock say that they can check clearances without taking the head off, but you still need that expensive kit and im not gonna buy that just for this one time, i dont have the time or money right now. ive been reading a few threads on the subject of clearances and stuff and im getting a little overwhelmed. this is supposed to be a rather simple build and im just worried ill break it, ive got too much into the motor, lol.

someone help?


Modified by GSRCRXsi at 5:45 PM 5/18/2006

 

You could always clay your motor.

 

dont want to take the head off, dont want to buy another headgasket. looking for an easier solution...

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1616749

maybe that will help. i'm going to attempt it this weekend.

 

yea ive been reading that... im just overwhelmed. i dont have an air compresor, and om a little hesitant to put a bb in the rocker arms... i really dont want to disassemble the head at all.

also dan keeps saying to put the piston at TDC at overlap position. i know how to get the piston to TDC, thats easy, and i know WHAT the overlap position is, i just dont know WHERE it is. any help with that?

 

ok i figured out what the overlap thing was. just so the cam gears are upside down, just 1 turn of the crank.

now i just need an easy way to lock vtec. i really dont want to disassemble the head. ive never pulled the rockers out and im a tad scared to.

i checked how far it would go til it hit the piston on the non vtec lobes (pointless i know) but it tops out the cam gear (full advance intake, and full retard exhaust) and the skunk2 gears do something like +/- 12 degrees. so its looking promising.

also im thinking i may have made a mistake in my calculating the degrees to correct from the milling. see i calculated the degrees that the crank was off when the cams were at TDC, not the other way around. and the crank moves twice the amount the cams do right? so then my cams would only be off by 1.7 degrees if the crank was off by 3.4 correct?

 

bump for piston to valve specs for skunk2 stage 2 cams... or is it general to use the specs that dan mentioned in another thread .050 intake .080 exhaust ?

and a little OT, i know the exhaust clearance it going to be bigger anyway since the exhaust lobes (generally) have less lift and duration but why would you not want it tighter? like what would be the big deal if you had .050 on the exhaust side?

bump for the other questions ive posted too. ive pretty much figured all the cam stuff out now and how to do this without taking the head off, but im looking for easier ways to lock vtec, without taking the rockers apart, and if possible without using air. the main reason i want to avoid the air thing is because people have been saying that you loose pressure very fast since it just leaks out. but dan said something about being able to keep it in vtec without having a ginormous compressor, something about moving the cam back so that the pins stay still. i hope he can come in here and explain how this is done...

 

bump for late(r) night people

 

bump no one?

 

up again. come on. someone has to have some answers.

am i right to assume that the point when p-v clearance is at its tightest is at overlap postion right? when the piston reaches TDC after pushing exhaust out. rght?

 

Actually, P-V clearance is usually tightest 10~12 deg from TDC exhaust...

I can think of 2 ways to find out what your valve to piston clearance is; remove the head and use clay or use a degree wheel and dial indicator. I'm thinking about writing a "how to" using this method with the tools that Mike_Belben@yahoo.com sells.

 

as ive said, im not wasting 200 dollars on something im gonna use once. granted its a great tool, but overkill for what i need. and not worth it IMO.

i also said that i would like to do this without taking the head off, so clay is out of the question.

and i said its tightest there because thats where dan ruddock said he does his measurments from, so putting 2 and 2 together, you can see what i mean. why would he do it at this position if its not at its tightest at this point? could this be the reason for making the exhaust clearance so much more then intake at this point? (.080 ex vs. .050 in are these good general clearances to follow?) he also didnt use a degree wheel, as you only need to know where the piston is at TDC and you can do that just by lining up the timing marks.

10-12 degrees before or after TDC?

you seem to have become the poster child so to speak for mike belbens tool. not that it isnt a great tool, but IMO its ALWAYS necessary, ie for milder builds such as mine.

but since no one has even addressed the VTEC locking issue ive noted several times, which is my main concern at the moment, i think i might just resort to pulling the rockers, unless someone can chime in with an easier way...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRCRXsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as ive said, im not wasting 200 dollars on something im gonna use once. granted its a great tool, but overkill for what i need. and not worth it IMO.

i also said that i would like to do this without taking the head off, so clay is out of the question.</TD></TR></TABLE>
There is one other way, but it involves the type of optical and computer equipment that should be left in your Proctologists office. If you read that thread thoroughly, you will realize that Dan offered measurements that were recommended by someone else. He DOES NOT know what his actual clearances are, and cannot guarantee that they will work for you.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRCRXsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">10-12 degrees before or after TDC?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Both. Due to variances in piston valve reliefs, and the aggressivness of different cams, it is necessary to observe the clearance on both sides of TDC.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRCRXsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you seem to have become the poster child so to speak for mike belbens tool. not that it isnt a great tool, but IMO its ALWAYS necessary, ie for milder builds such as mine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
And you seem to have become the poster child for ignorance. You can accomplish this task without his tools, but you still need a degree wheel and at least one dial indicator. You will also need to address the issue of locking the VTEC followers to measure the high cam lift. There is no other way.

You should be thankful that I have taken the time to explain what I have, there may be others here that could have done that (but they wont).

 

did you read my post? i clearly said (many times actually) that i know i need to lock VTEC and was looking for an easier solution then the ones posed (pulling rocker, or air pressure, which leaks) and NO ONE offered any alternative solutions. have any?

and i have a dial indicator, thats not a problem. dan seems to have used his method fine. and its cheaper and easier then buying all those tools. he didnt even use a degree wheel for it. is he wrong because he didnt spend 200 dollars on mikes tool? thats how youre comming off.

i wish dan would see this thread and give some insight...

 

i think that Dan Ruddock's method involves actually turning the cams until the valves touch the pistons and then backs off based on the dial indicator, therefore the wheel isn't necessary. that is, if all you are doing is checking for p-v clearance, so you know how far you can play with the adjustable cam gears.

 

yes thats the method im talking about. i dont see how he wouldnt know the clearance if he physically touches the piston then measures how much he comes off of it... that is the clearance.

im really just trying to find out my range of adjustability for when tuning time comes.

so this is the method in my mind and the one outlined by dan.

set cyl 1 to TDC with cams in overlap ("up" pointers on gears pointing down, TDC mark lined up dead nuts on)
setup dial indicator
loosen cam gear bolts
turn cam til it hits piston (advancing for intake, retarding for exhaust)
zero indicator
back off the cam til you are at your min allowable setting

and viola you have your max allowed settings for cam gear adjustment. at least thats how i read it...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GSRCRXsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes thats the method im talking about. i dont see how he wouldnt know the clearance if he physically touches the piston then measures how much he comes off of it... that is the clearance.

im really just trying to find out my range of adjustability for when tuning time comes.

so this is the method in my mind and the one outlined by dan.

set cyl 1 to TDC with cams in overlap ("up" pointers on gears pointing down, TDC mark lined up dead nuts on)
setup dial indicator
loosen cam gear bolts
turn cam til it hits piston (advancing for intake, retarding for exhaust)
zero indicator
back off the cam til you are at your min allowable setting

and viola you have your max allowed settings for cam gear adjustment. at least thats how i read it...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep that is about right but loosening the bolts is not enough they have to be removed to get enough adjustment range and this method will not tell you valve to valve clearance. Dan

 

why would you need more range then the gear has? i tested this method out, on the non vtec lobes (just to see how it worked really) and i went all the way to the end of the gear before it hit. taking the bolts out i could have gone further sure, but why would you need to if you would never go that far?

also care to comment on the clearance specs? you said before that .050 for intake and .080 for exhaust. why does exhaust clearance need to be so much more? are these good numbers to go by for my setup? if not what clearances should i use? (skunk2 stage 2 cams, JDM ITR pistons) and what about b20 saying that you dont know exactly what your clearances are for this method?

also i see i need to remove the oil control orafices to remove the rockers. how do i do that exactly? needle nose pliers? helms just says remove them, lol.

thanks for giving your input in this thread dan.

 

they are threaded so if you can find a skinny screw you can screw it in and pull them out. not sure what size, i just lucked out. needlenose might work if you are careful, you just need to pull them straight up, and the only resistance should be the rubber o-ring on the oil control orifices.

 

I don't take the rockers apart no reason to. You will need the extra adjustment to get the rocker pins to line up for vtec to engage when you put air to it. On my engine when vtec was engaged I would run out of gear adjustment before the valves would hit the pistons unless I took the bolts out. You need more on the exhaust because if there is any valve float it will increase the chance of contact but the intake closes when the piston is at bdc thus valve float is not a piston to valve clearance problem on the intake. Dan

 

ah. thank you very much dan. im not using air, i pulled the rocers apart and used Tbones method (he used a bb to kick it out, but i used a small piece of plastic.

checking clearance now...

 

Boy that is a lot of work doing it that way. Dan

 

haha. i dont mind. it wasnt as hard as i thought it would be. but having to remove about 30 bolts then put them back in to check clearance, then removing them again to get the pieces out, then putting it all back together again does suck. but, oh well i dont have an air compressor.

i did clearance check. this is what i came up with.

note, because of milling my "zero" is +2,+2

using .050 on the intake i got my max to be +7 (+5 from zero)
using .080 on the exhaust i got max to be +1 (-1 from zero)

sound right? i think im gonna redo the exhaust to double check it, maybe i saw -1 instead of +1 (which would be -3 from zero)

thoughts, opinions?