Okay, this isnt exactly prelude specific.. but with gas prices goin up some of us are looking for something else to run our cars on (at least i am). Maybe theres a few of you that have run your car on alcohol..

1) What kind of modification does it take to run on alcohol?

2) I've read that alcohol doesnt burn as well as gasoline (therefore less power). But Ive also read that it has a higher octane? Is this correct, because this could make for more potential in higher compression, or running more boost?

I dont know how serious I am about converting my car, but I am very curious. So anyone with input would be appreciated!

 

running alcohol definetly increases hp, the air fuel mixture is the key to this. gasoline take 13 parts feul to one part air. alcohol take 1 part fuel to 1 part air. which causes much higher cumbustion

 

Think about this: it takes more energy to grow corn to make ethanol than that which we get out of it. Don't know too much about efficiency though but that's not really a great problem... it's jus the start-up cost of such resources.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RickeyJa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Think about this: it takes more energy to grow corn to make ethanol than that which we get out of it. Don't know too much about efficiency though but that's not really a great problem... it's jus the start-up cost of such resources.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yea its more expensive, but here is the point: With ethanol you are using up a renewable resource. With oil, once its gone, its gone for roughly another 1000+ years.

Ethanol is in its early stages, even though we have been using it for a little while now, it was kinda never improved on till now when they have resumed research on it.

Now on to my opinion: If you take all vehicles that dont need to make the extra power from gasoline (IE soccer mom SUVs, moving trucks, a lot of family cars) and make them run ethanol, do you realise the impact that would have on crude oil demand? Oil demand would drop and so would gas prices.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Qveon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Now on to my opinion: If you take all vehicles that dont need to make the extra power from gasoline (IE soccer mom SUVs, moving trucks, a lot of family cars) and make them run ethanol, do you realise the impact that would have on crude oil demand? Oil demand would drop and so would gas prices.</TD></TR></TABLE>

amin

 

dont you think that 100+mpg cars could already be made? the only reason that they are not is because of the oil companies and politics. they will squash ANY challenge to their monopoly on prices. we have the technology, just the politics that is holding it back...

 

i htinik if u want to run alchol, your gonna need a **** ton more fuel supply, i believe you need almost twice the amount of alochol as compared to gas for the same power. so this means we would all need 700cc injectors stock,

i am not sure about that though, this is what i read about alchol powered cars.

 

so IF you could convert the car to run on it, where would you get it every week or two to fill up?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by helicopter201 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dont you think that 100+mpg cars could already be made? the only reason that they are not is because of the oil companies and politics. they will squash ANY challenge to their monopoly on prices. we have the technology, just the politics that is holding it back...</TD></TR></TABLE>

they(Ford, VW, etc) have small cars that get 60-70mpg in europe made possible by simple small turbo diesel engines. most americans are still stuck on trucks/SUV's, so I doubt car companies are gonna take the time/money to bring them here. my guess is companies are watching how well the new Toyota yaris and Honda Fit sell, if they are a success then maybe we'll get even more efficient cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eddiebx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i htinik if u want to run alchol, your gonna need a **** ton more fuel supply, i believe you need almost twice the amount of alochol as compared to gas for the same power. so this means we would all need 700cc injectors stock,

i am not sure about that though, this is what i read about alchol powered cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah, you're right. whatever you're running with gas will take almost twice as much alchohol which will prolly throw the cost thing out the window.

Also it would be a very BAD idea to run alcohol in a street car. For one, alcohol eats everything like fuel injectors and rubber seals all over the place. Most drag racers who use it will run regular gas through it at the end of the day so that the alcohol is not sitting in there. Also the alcohol is thin enough to slip past the rings and contaminate the oil, causing the need for very frequent oil changes.

Oh yeah itll also burn your eyes out and give you the *****.

 

alright seems like alcohol isnt the best idea.

thought id ask and see what people had to say. i thought you could run a gas/alcohol mixture to avoid alcohol eating everything so fast. but i guess theres no way of getting around that completely.

i also think that car companies do hold back their potential to make super efficient cars and what not.. due to politics and the like.

 

Alcohol? It'll getcha drunk!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by plikit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">alright seems like alcohol isnt the best idea.

thought id ask and see what people had to say. i thought you could run a gas/alcohol mixture to avoid alcohol eating everything so fast. but i guess theres no way of getting around that completely.

i also think that car companies do hold back their potential to make super efficient cars and what not.. due to politics and the like.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The guys i've seen run it will have 2 tanks, one regular race gas, and the other alcohol. These were blown v8's with mechanical injection by the way. The car would start with an electrical fuel pump pumping race gas, then once started the alcohol would kick in via the belt driven pump and the race gas gets turned off. Then at the end of the day the car gets ran on race gas only to get the alcohol pumped out.

Porpane injection might be a more pheasable option but I'm not sure how it really works, I think MSD has a kit though.

 

im sure the new cars coming out now could make 60mpg not hybrid if they weren't such porkers......

think about it, if an old civic from about 20 years ago can get 35-40 mpg, then the newer more efficient engines should at least be able to manage 50mpg if the cars didn't weigh so much for all the "creature comforts" and overboard safety equipment like 6 air bags

i had a friend in high school that drove a 92 civic hatch and would get around 42mpg on the hwy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alcohol? It'll getcha drunk!

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Oh man...... that's one of my favorites!

 

true... who needs air bags when you have a mother in law!

anyway when i went to the US seemed like car manufacturers want bigger engine 7.0 Litre and likewise here in australia.

I think it has finally sunk into car manufacturers that 7 litre engines who drink fuel like there is no tomorrow to make power was a bad move. Large car sales over here have dropped 26% this year.

there are cars out there running on olive oil etc... there are many alternatives, but the politicians are paid by oil comapnies for thier campaigns.... so what happens......... more oil is their solution.

 

First off, ethanol e85 can be made pretty cheaply if ones resourcefull enough. Its just like making moonshine but you have to add fuel to it to get the permit. Anything organic can be used. Imagine all the produce that gets thrown out each day in stores accross the country. People have made e85 for as little as 80 cents a gallon. Even though e85 will have a 20-30% fuel consumption increase, this is still a a big price savings compared to gas. Corn is actually the most expensive way to make ethanol.

The hard part is getting setup to make e85. 99% of the time any station that sell e85 is for gov use only. Even though there are many stock cars that are designed to run e85. See this link for the list of makes and models: http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php

I figured that building the Charels 803 stil and converting my Lude will run about $2000. It would take under 2 years to break even if I only used it in the Prelude. A carb'ed car is much easier since you don't have to mess with remapping the ecu for different mixtures of ethanol.

I figure the mods that will have to be made are as follows: Replace rubber with neoprine (sp?). Some plastics are ok but unless you know the exact composition you'll have to replace it with a metal counterpart. This will include the fuel pump and sender unit. You'll needa programable ecu with presets for different mixtures. E85 is 106 octane so you can also run higher compression safely.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/e85toolkit/
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/index.html &lt;---Best info I've found so far.

 

which will make more power tuned on a stock motor??

e85 vs 93octane gas??

and also, a hondata will work to adjust the mix right?

when you say replace rubber you just mean anything along the fuel supply system right?? and are stock injectors enough or do you need more than 345cc....how about the fuel rail? what sort of fuel filter can you run??

maybe some of this stuff is in those readings....i dont have time to read em right now or i would....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">which will make more power tuned on a stock motor??

e85 vs 93octane gas??

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on a stock motor regular gas will make more power with better gas mileage.

I don't see why the average consumer would switch over to e85 if the fuel (last time I checked) is only about 10% cheaper while they lose 30% of their gas mileage.

Even if it averaged out to costing the same or a little less, if you normally go about 300miles between fill ups with e85 you'd have to make a stop about every 200miles. Thats about an extra 20 fill ups a year if you drive 12k miles.

 

Even if you use corn the cost shouldn't be higher than $1.50 a gallon. I dunno what you're paying, but thats half the price of 93 here. And think of how clean your engine will stay.

mgags7: Yes, all the rubber lines have to be replaced. I think it was Pirate that said I'd need like 345's. I tried emailing RC eng about it. I'm sure the o-rings in the injectors will have to be replaced. Fuel filter can be a stock unit, but it has to be replaced often at first because ethanol is a really good solvent. The problem with that last link is that it was written durring the 70's gas crisis. Theres no info that I've found about doing this to a fuel injected car.

 

my head hurts...

 

hmm well would e85 be a good alternative for race applications seeing that its 106 octane?

seems like from 87 to 93 can allow for a couple points of higher compression. a jump from 93 to 106 could allow for a few more right? and in a race application, gas mileage really wouldnt be a question. sounds like it would be a viable option.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Even if you use corn the cost shouldn't be higher than $1.50 a gallon. I dunno what you're paying, but thats half the price of 93 here. And think of how clean your engine will stay.

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what are you talking about? I'm not "using" anything I'm going off what E85 sells for per gallon. Please show me a place selling it for $1.50 a gallon.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by plikit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmm well would e85 be a good alternative for race applications seeing that its 106 octane?

seems like from 87 to 93 can allow for a couple points of higher compression. a jump from 93 to 106 could allow for a few more right? and in a race application, gas mileage really wouldnt be a question. sounds like it would be a viable option.</TD></TR></TABLE>

or just buy race gas thats probably already available at the track.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AzCivic1.6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what are you talking about? I'm not "using" anything I'm going off what E85 sells for per gallon. Please show me a place selling it for $1.50 a gallon.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you'd read my first post you'll see that I'm talking about making it myself. It's not available here except for the government. I also can't help what the oil ****'s are selling e85 for. In Europe it's about $1 a gallon cheaper depending on the ethanol percentage. Race gas is almost $5 a gallon. Still a far cry for what you can make e85 for.