To make a super long story short.

On the dyno we found the coolant was mixing with the oil. Thought the head gasket was shot so I pulled the head and put a new GE headgasket on. Put it back on the dyno it seemed okay but once it the car got warm and we started doing pulls the catch can was filling up with coolant super fast. After letting the car sit and then draining the oil I got about half a pint of coolant out of the oil pan.

So far I have done a compression test
160 150 160 160

Leak down test I put 80psi in and the numbers I got ranged from 77-74.5 with number two cylinder having 74.5 psi

I pressurized the rad when cold and when hot. When cold it holds 20psi and needle does not move. When up to operating temp it slowly looses pressure and when I say slow it is you have to let the gauge sit and then it will drop a little bit at a time.

Next thing I plan on doing is getting the car warm pulling the valve cover pressurizing the system and seeing if I see coolant leaking in anywhere. I prob won’t but not sure what other tests to do before pulling the head.

The setup is gsr bottom end with darton MID sleeves. The bottom end was bran new freshly sleeved from darton and built.

The head is a built gsr head and was run about 6 times. I did not have the head checked for flatness (not sure what to call it). Thinking that may be the issue.

 

you sure you dont have a coolant and oil line mixed up on the back of the block??easy to do, i know many that have before..before you go any farther i check all the bearings after pulling that much coolant out the oil pan...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1FSTHATCH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you sure you dont have a coolant and oil line mixed up on the back of the block??easy to do, i know many that have before..before you go any farther i check all the bearings after pulling that much coolant out the oil pan...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope I know I have that hooked up correctly. The fitting had broken and was leaking oil. That is how I found the coolant mixing with the oil.

 

That sucks man, i really dont know what else to tell you..how did the bearings look by the way??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1FSTHATCH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That sucks man, i really dont know what else to tell you..how did the bearings look by the way??</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did not check them yet. Not sure if I want to know. Oil pressure was good 75 plus.

 

sounds like a leaking sleeve to Me

 

The dreaded "dropped sleeve". I thought we were past all that.

 

most of us are

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpeedDreamz.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The dreaded "dropped sleeve". I thought we were past all that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am really dreading that. According to darton they claim the MID's can not drop b/c they are a single unit. Who knows.

 

all depends on who installed them if installed wrong any sleeve can drop that's why we install all of our sleeves so we know it is done right

 

is it "mixing" at idle or under normal driving? or only under boost?
since you said that the coolant system was overflowing, Im assuming that it is mainly a problem under boost, but normally the car checks out fine...

If thats the case, you could have dropped a sleeve, but you are more likely lifting the head under boost.

That would be my theory if I understand you properly.
hope this helps.

 

It does not appear to be mixing when idling or normal driving. I have not really driven the car on the street though. If it is mixing while idleing it is very minimal. The most comes while under boost. Some people I have spoken to said if the head lifts under boost you will see it on the dyno graph. The car will just loose power. My car keeps making power until redline.

Just for some clarification when I said the catch can I meant the crank case catch can. One fitting is hooked up from the valve cover the other one is from the back of the block using the z-10 fitting.

 

Definatly sounds like leaky sleeves. I had this happen 3 times in the past.. Pull the pan and drain all the oil and clean the pan completely, then put the pan on with 2 bolts and let it sit overnight(a few days if possible) then drop the pan and see if any coolant drippd into it and look along the side of the main cap bridges, you will see a trail mrak where the coolant ran along them down to dripping into the pan.

 

my dropped sleeve like to explode my radiators at the top of 4th gear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Definatly sounds like leaky sleeves. I had this happen 3 times in the past.. Pull the pan and drain all the oil and clean the pan completely, then put the pan on with 2 bolts and let it sit overnight(a few days if possible) then drop the pan and see if any coolant drippd into it and look along the side of the main cap bridges, you will see a trail mrak where the coolant ran along them down to dripping into the pan.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So it will leak even when the motor is cold? Or only when it is hot?

 

I have the same problem with my motor. I just built it with MID sleeve and on the dyno it blew up the upper rad hose like a balloon. So I changed the head gasket and drove it on the street and every thing looked fine till I took it to the track. On my first pass the same sh*t, water and a little oil all over the place. I think I have a dropped sleeve but haven't removed the head yet.

 

Easiest way to determine a bad headgasket/warped head. Pressurize the cylinder individually using a leakdown tester. Heres how: Warm car to temp. Remove radiator cap(be carefull on this one). Top off fluid if needed. Place cylinder @ TDC and pressurize cylinder to 80 to 100 psi(if the ratchet spins just hold the ratchet at the highest psi you can hold). Watch the radiator fill(were the cap was) and if the coolant level rises (happens pretty quick)you have a problem. Do this for each cylinder and it will pinpoint exactly which cylinder has a problem. If there is no rise of coolant out of the radiator then your problem lies elsewhere. Hope this helps.
Chris

 

Not starting in on this thread to talk smack, but to give my experiences.

9 out of 10 times a blown gasket is due to tuning issues. A little too much timing, the cams timed incorrectly causing massive cylinder pressure, insufficient head clamping, waperd head and/or block, all can cause pre-mature headgasket failure, which can lead to the symtoms that you detailed!

Yes, a sunk sleeves or leaking sleeve installation can also happen, but if it was done correctly, then it should be fine. I have also noticed that incorrect tuning can also lead to a sunken sleeve-TYPE of experience. When the gasket blows between the cylinders ( thinnest part ) then material can actually be removed from the sleeve due to the combustion burn. This will NEVER allow the gasket to seal, even with a new gasket. The block MUST be surfaced to be 100% certain that the block deck surface is not causing the failure. Combustion between cylinders can also actually "shift" the sleeves. If the combustion gets into the siamese portion of the sleeve ( where the sleeves have their flat spot on the top where they meet ) this can put ALOT of stress on the sleeves themselves and the block casting that they are pressed into. ANY movement of sleeves can cause the gasket to leak, and will aid in blowing headgaskets thereafter until the actual intergrity of the block is restored, either by decking the block or by re-seating the sleeves!

The Darton MID sleeves are vulerable to this last scenario because there is no real "press" fit for the sleeves. It mainly relies on the o-ring to seal the water from the oil and the cylinder adhesive to keep them in place, both of which can have their intergirty threatened if they are exposed to the comustion. Also, ANY block is vulerable to blowing between the cylinders. That siamese area is the weak link for blocks. If combustion gets into that " crack ) between the sleeves, then it will pressurize the water jackets, and cause the ability to have the radiator and or hoses to blowup, as detailed above.

So like I said before, wether you use Darton, RS, Benson, Golden Eagle, whatever for sleeving, if the car is not tuned correctly, it will harm the gasket and can even harm the block. Have the block checked, resurfaced, and cleaned back up before you try to just replace the gasket. 9 out of 10 times, if the block is harmed between the sleeves, it will not be able to seal no matter what!

Vince


Modified by Mazda 3 Racer at 5:13 PM 4/25/2006

 

Vince thank you for your input. I guess it boils down to me taking the block out and apart and having a machine shop check everything over.

 

One other question does it matter what coolant I use? I know when I spoke with darton at SEMA they told me to run evans coolant. Would that make a difference?

 

Have you tried contacting Darton about your issue?

Unfortunately when you come here first you get people who would rather blame the product and then just happen to mention their product instead of trying to help you with your current problem...You shouldn't just drop blame and not give a reason or a solution to the problem and if you don't have a solution, read on till someone does.

Not you Vince, you know I got your back.....What's "comustion"...

Feel free to contact us at either via email or call...For contact info go to http://www.dartonsleeves.com. There are two locations to serve you.

As for Evans Coolant. We recommend Evans because all the testing they have done with regards to our sleeve material. We recommend any non-water based coolant but prefer Evans. Ductile iron does rust very easily when contacted with water. If you put water on Ductile iron it will rust over-night Evans is a lifetime coolant, unless you break down your engine it never has to be changed. You also get more efficient cooling which causes it to have a higher boil rate whichs aids in the elimination of cavitation and detonation issues. Evans also never freezes...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Darton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you tried contacting Darton about your issue?

Unfortunately when you come here first you get people who would rather blame the product and then just happen to mention their product instead of trying to help you with your current problem...You shouldn't just drop blame and not give a reason or a solution to the problem and if you don't have a solution, read on till someone does.

Not you Vince, you know I got your back.....What's "comustion"...

Feel free to contact us at either via email or call...For contact info go to http://www.dartonsleeves.com. There are two locations to serve you.

As for Evans Coolant. We recommend Evans because all the testing they have done with regards to our sleeve material. We recommend any non-water based coolant but prefer Evans. Ductile iron does rust very easily when contacted with water. If you put water on Ductile iron it will rust over-night Evans is a lifetime coolant, unless you break down your engine it never has to be changed. You also get more efficient cooling which causes it to have a higher boil rate whichs aids in the elimination of cavitation and detonation issues. Evans also never freezes...</TD></TR></TABLE>

i was not droping our name neaver told him to buy a new block from us just saying to check the block nothing wrong with darton sleeves just if they are instaled wrong there can be a problem as with any sleeve

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Darton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Not you Vince, you know I got your back.....What's "comustion"...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is the small explosion just before " combustion " happens
Like I said, I am not bashing anyone or any product, just stating that there may be other outside factors influencing the gasket to blow or cause the sleeves to leak.

I know you got my back John, but what good is that with your f'ed up knee....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Darton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you tried contacting Darton about your issue?

Unfortunately when you come here first you get people who would rather blame the product and then just happen to mention their product instead of trying to help you with your current problem...You shouldn't just drop blame and not give a reason or a solution to the problem and if you don't have a solution, read on till someone does.

Not you Vince, you know I got your back.....What's "comustion"...

Feel free to contact us at either via email or call...For contact info go to http://www.dartonsleeves.com. There are two locations to serve you.

As for Evans Coolant. We recommend Evans because all the testing they have done with regards to our sleeve material. We recommend any non-water based coolant but prefer Evans. Ductile iron does rust very easily when contacted with water. If you put water on Ductile iron it will rust over-night Evans is a lifetime coolant, unless you break down your engine it never has to be changed. You also get more efficient cooling which causes it to have a higher boil rate whichs aids in the elimination of cavitation and detonation issues. Evans also never freezes...</TD></TR></TABLE>

John,

I had actually called you first the Tuesday right after I had the car on the dyno and found that the oil was mixing with the coolant. I had asked you about the o-rings and if it was okay to run a stock head gasket or if I needed to run a cooper head gasket with those steel o-rings. After speaking with you I spoke with a few machine shops to see if I could bring the head down to have it checked out and both said to do some tests on the motor before ripping it apart. Compression test, leak down test, pressurize the rad and so on. I did all of those tests and have also pressurize the rad when the car was hot and cold pulled the valve cover looking around for leaks.

I made this post to try and find out what else I can do before ripping apart the motor, so that I can try and make the NHRA e-town event May 6-7. Anyone that knows me knows I go and race all the events. I have missed 3 small track events so far this year b/c I was building my car for SFWD and it is killing me. My goal is to make the E-town event so I am just trying to figure out what else can be done to fix the car and get me there.

If it comes down to ripping the block apart I am planning on doing as you suggested with taking it to a machine shop and having them press the sleeves and seeing if they move. If they did then I was going to be in contact with you. If it turns out the head needed to be decked or something else was wrong I would have it fixed and then gone from there and given you a call to update you. I did not want to waste your time or anyone else time until I had some more information besides that the coolant was mixing with the oil.

In no way did I feel that I posted blame or pointed fingers in this thread. I do not even know what is wrong with the motor nor am I the type of person to point fingers or post blame. The whole point of this thread is just to try and solve the problem so that I can get the car running and make it to the event, and do what I love to do.

 

You better hurry up and stop asking questions. Theres no better solution than ripping it apart to check all your surfaces and sleeves.