This is the best lowering method
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From: Locash
This is the best lowering method
http://www.heldmotorsports.com/Honda/index.htm
Not sure anyone can afford these but I thought I'd share. This is the absolute best way to lower your Civic/Integra because it doesn't expletive with your suspension geometry. No added bump steer or loss of wheel travel. These parts are also lighter than stock. They work by simply positioning the wheel higher on the spindle (front) and trailing arm (rear). You will need stock height springs or coilovers that can get you near the stock spring length. You will also want a camber kit so you can add negative camber if you race. If you don't race, consider lowering the car an additional .25 inches from the 1.5 this kit gives you. That will give you an ideal amount of negative camber for spirited street driving.
Total cost is much higher than conventional methods, but performance wise, it is far superior. Total cost is this kit front and rear, 15 inch rims, (*optional uprated springs/coilovers, front and rear camber kits).
Not sure anyone can afford these but I thought I'd share. This is the absolute best way to lower your Civic/Integra because it doesn't expletive with your suspension geometry. No added bump steer or loss of wheel travel. These parts are also lighter than stock. They work by simply positioning the wheel higher on the spindle (front) and trailing arm (rear). You will need stock height springs or coilovers that can get you near the stock spring length. You will also want a camber kit so you can add negative camber if you race. If you don't race, consider lowering the car an additional .25 inches from the 1.5 this kit gives you. That will give you an ideal amount of negative camber for spirited street driving.
Total cost is much higher than conventional methods, but performance wise, it is far superior. Total cost is this kit front and rear, 15 inch rims, (*optional uprated springs/coilovers, front and rear camber kits).
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 98
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From: Jonesboro, Ga, USA
do u use them or have u used them? i started my car building working on lowered trucks so i know that this i the way most people lower trucks, but i wonder how effective it is on a car. what about the integrity of the kit, is it as strong as the stock pieces?
Re: (xtremegsr273)
Do you have any specifics on that "rear trailing arm bushing"? That doesn't look like it would function like stock...
There are no "ADVERSE" effects from lowering a Civic/integra the "conventional" way (with springs or coil-overs). You just have to make sure to reset all your bushings. You're not going to run into any alignment problems if you don't have any bent suspension parts...
There are no "ADVERSE" effects from lowering a Civic/integra the "conventional" way (with springs or coil-overs). You just have to make sure to reset all your bushings. You're not going to run into any alignment problems if you don't have any bent suspension parts...
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 98
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From: Jonesboro, Ga, USA
well the reason i was considering using them is because my axles are binding. i have vibration and my axles are failing every 2-3 months. the only conclusion i can come to is that my axles are binding because my car is lowered using springs so something like this would allow me to put my suspension geometry back to stock, yet still have a lowered car. anyone got any experience with these? i would really like to find out more.
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From: CA, United States
if even if this lowers your car will it improve performance...sure you still get the same oem ride but how will it handle? i wanna see how it competes with lets say GC's with kyb adj...
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Jonesboro, Ga, USA
Re: (Tornadom)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tornadom »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How would this kit correct the angle on your axles?</TD></TR></TABLE>
because it would put the suspension back at the correct angle. if i took the springs off and used this, it would be just like a stock ride, just with the wheels mounting point raised.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bmoua »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if even if this lowers your car will it improve performance...sure you still get the same oem ride but how will it handle? i wanna see how it competes with lets say GC's with kyb adj...</TD></TR></TABLE>
i doubt it would improve performance. my plan is to use this along with a coilover setup so that i can increase the spring rate. an increased spring rate with sway bars will have the same performance as a car lowered on coilovers.
because it would put the suspension back at the correct angle. if i took the springs off and used this, it would be just like a stock ride, just with the wheels mounting point raised.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bmoua »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if even if this lowers your car will it improve performance...sure you still get the same oem ride but how will it handle? i wanna see how it competes with lets say GC's with kyb adj...</TD></TR></TABLE>
i doubt it would improve performance. my plan is to use this along with a coilover setup so that i can increase the spring rate. an increased spring rate with sway bars will have the same performance as a car lowered on coilovers.
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Re: (adictionbass)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtremegsr273 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well the reason i was considering using them is because my axles are binding. i have vibration and my axles are failing every 2-3 months. the only conclusion i can come to is that my axles are binding because my car is lowered using springs so something like this would allow me to put my suspension geometry back to stock, yet still have a lowered car. anyone got any experience with these? i would really like to find out more.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, if it moves the wheel up 2" on the spindle, it also moves the axle up too since they connect to the center of your wheel... DUH!
Whatever ride height your car is at, your axles will be at the same angle no matter what type of lowering you do...
Well, if it moves the wheel up 2" on the spindle, it also moves the axle up too since they connect to the center of your wheel... DUH!
Whatever ride height your car is at, your axles will be at the same angle no matter what type of lowering you do...
Re: (xtremegsr273)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtremegsr273 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... i thought i had found a solution.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's what they want you to think...
It's funny that they recomend buying this expensive kit, PLUS a camber kit, AND coil-overs too... All to acomplish the same thing that a simple set of springs can take care of...
Save your money & buy good shocks & tires...
That's what they want you to think...
It's funny that they recomend buying this expensive kit, PLUS a camber kit, AND coil-overs too... All to acomplish the same thing that a simple set of springs can take care of...
Save your money & buy good shocks & tires...
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From: Northern, CA
Re: (94eg!)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well, if it moves the wheel up 2" on the spindle, it also moves the axle up too since they connect to the center of your wheel... DUH!
Whatever ride height your car is at, your axles will be at the same angle no matter what type of lowering you do...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank-you for being more articulate than me. When I questioned how it would correct the angle of the axles I was trying to think of a way to say what you just said. Since I couldn't find the right words, I said nothing.
Well, if it moves the wheel up 2" on the spindle, it also moves the axle up too since they connect to the center of your wheel... DUH!
Whatever ride height your car is at, your axles will be at the same angle no matter what type of lowering you do...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank-you for being more articulate than me. When I questioned how it would correct the angle of the axles I was trying to think of a way to say what you just said. Since I couldn't find the right words, I said nothing.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Union, KY, USA
Re: (xtremegsr273)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtremegsr273 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol, i really have to start paying attention to what i'm saying. yeah ur right. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The only thing that is going to change your CV angles will be to raise the car or decrease your overall tire/wheel diameter and then raising the car back up to the height that it is now. in doing this, you are also changing your final drive gearing as well though. I have this situation on my F Prod CRX and I am planning to remove my 15 inch wheels with 23.0 OD slicks and go to 13 inch wheels with 21.0 OD slicks. At the same time, I will change my final drive ration from a 4.7 back to a 4.2 and this will give me a wash on the gearing and let the outer CV sit one inch closer to the ground thus decreasing the CV angles. Additionally, it will decrease the my steering tie rod angles as well and improve my bump steer.
I first saw these items when they were introduced by Ryane (do a search for Ryane here and several discussions will pop up). These parts are quite interesting but to me it is not because of axle issues. I would have bought a set but they were prohibitively expensive then. The Ryane company was broken up and sold off in pieces. Dave Held bought part of the company and he was a Fiero guy. I met Dave and and worked with him on a few Koni things. He then sold the company off to the guy in Michigan whose site you found. Dave Held himself now doesn't have anything to do with this business and now has another company fabricating some parts.
I have not seen the current pricing on these Honda parts, they seem to be pretty interesting parts but I don't know anyone who has run them so we can only project what they actually do or don't do, weight savings, improved geometry, etc. and we don't know what side effects or ramifications that may be caused by using them too (pretty common).
The only thing that is going to change your CV angles will be to raise the car or decrease your overall tire/wheel diameter and then raising the car back up to the height that it is now. in doing this, you are also changing your final drive gearing as well though. I have this situation on my F Prod CRX and I am planning to remove my 15 inch wheels with 23.0 OD slicks and go to 13 inch wheels with 21.0 OD slicks. At the same time, I will change my final drive ration from a 4.7 back to a 4.2 and this will give me a wash on the gearing and let the outer CV sit one inch closer to the ground thus decreasing the CV angles. Additionally, it will decrease the my steering tie rod angles as well and improve my bump steer.
I first saw these items when they were introduced by Ryane (do a search for Ryane here and several discussions will pop up). These parts are quite interesting but to me it is not because of axle issues. I would have bought a set but they were prohibitively expensive then. The Ryane company was broken up and sold off in pieces. Dave Held bought part of the company and he was a Fiero guy. I met Dave and and worked with him on a few Koni things. He then sold the company off to the guy in Michigan whose site you found. Dave Held himself now doesn't have anything to do with this business and now has another company fabricating some parts.
I have not seen the current pricing on these Honda parts, they seem to be pretty interesting parts but I don't know anyone who has run them so we can only project what they actually do or don't do, weight savings, improved geometry, etc. and we don't know what side effects or ramifications that may be caused by using them too (pretty common).
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From: Locash
Re: (94eg!)
Who's "they"? I recommended that for people that race. If it's your daily driver, you don't need anything other than the kit.
A lower center of gravity reduces body roll.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are no "ADVERSE" effects from lowering a Civic/integra the "conventional" way (with springs or coil-overs). You just have to make sure to reset all your bushings. You're not going to run into any alignment problems if you don't have any bent suspension parts... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Are you serious? You don't have any concern about bumpsteer and a lack of suspension travel? Bottoming out? Wow. You don't consider serious toe change an alignment problem?
Serious negative camber on a street car isn't a problem, right? Great. Run -2 degrees camber on your street car with street tires. Enjoy replacing them every 8 months and suffering from increased tendency to hydroplane, decreased traction over loose and wet surfaces, decreased traction for accelerating and braking. Because wild negative camber is good for EVERY application *sarcasm. If you're running high performance tires with a lot of negative camber on your street car, well not a lot can be said for you.
This kit lowers you 1.5 not 2 inches.
The effect of this kit is what you would get if Honda went back and revised their design to be the same except 1.5 inches lower. The suspension geometry doesn't change from stock. You naturally get the benefit of having preloaded coilovers, top hats, or the suspension travel mod.
KYB adjustables suck. You should choose a higher standard than that, like Konis and any quality reasonable spring rate springs or coilovers. Or Illuminas which are a good budget/performance compromise. Anyway, this kit does not replace springs or struts so there is no basis for comparison. You could get custom length rate Eibachs and Konis to go with this kit. Will it make you a great driver? No. But your car will have the advantage.
I don't have any vested interest in this product. Just thought I'd spread the word. If you already know everything there is to know then please excuse me.
A lower center of gravity reduces body roll.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are no "ADVERSE" effects from lowering a Civic/integra the "conventional" way (with springs or coil-overs). You just have to make sure to reset all your bushings. You're not going to run into any alignment problems if you don't have any bent suspension parts... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Are you serious? You don't have any concern about bumpsteer and a lack of suspension travel? Bottoming out? Wow. You don't consider serious toe change an alignment problem?
Serious negative camber on a street car isn't a problem, right? Great. Run -2 degrees camber on your street car with street tires. Enjoy replacing them every 8 months and suffering from increased tendency to hydroplane, decreased traction over loose and wet surfaces, decreased traction for accelerating and braking. Because wild negative camber is good for EVERY application *sarcasm. If you're running high performance tires with a lot of negative camber on your street car, well not a lot can be said for you.
This kit lowers you 1.5 not 2 inches.
The effect of this kit is what you would get if Honda went back and revised their design to be the same except 1.5 inches lower. The suspension geometry doesn't change from stock. You naturally get the benefit of having preloaded coilovers, top hats, or the suspension travel mod.
KYB adjustables suck. You should choose a higher standard than that, like Konis and any quality reasonable spring rate springs or coilovers. Or Illuminas which are a good budget/performance compromise. Anyway, this kit does not replace springs or struts so there is no basis for comparison. You could get custom length rate Eibachs and Konis to go with this kit. Will it make you a great driver? No. But your car will have the advantage.
I don't have any vested interest in this product. Just thought I'd spread the word. If you already know everything there is to know then please excuse me.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Jonesboro, Ga, USA
Re: (CRX Lee)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The only thing that is going to change your CV angles will be to raise the car or decrease your overall tire/wheel diameter and then raising the car back up to the height that it is now. in doing this, you are also changing your final drive gearing as well though. I have this situation on my F Prod CRX and I am planning to remove my 15 inch wheels with 23.0 OD slicks and go to 13 inch wheels with 21.0 OD slicks. At the same time, I will change my final drive ration from a 4.7 back to a 4.2 and this will give me a wash on the gearing and let the outer CV sit one inch closer to the ground thus decreasing the CV angles. Additionally, it will decrease the my steering tie rod angles as well and improve my bump steer.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah i see what ur saying. the problem for me is that i bought my car with 17's and lowered on springs. i want to drop to 16's, but increase the tire size (from 205/40/17 to 205 or 215/40/16) which means that i will have to raise the car higher than it is now. i don't really race and i already have an ITR tranny so the gears will be fine for me, i just want a nice street car that will handle good and be predictable. i don't know whats causing the axles to bind, but i've tried everything to fix it and no luck. i guess i'll just have to raise it and deal with it. lol, i saw these and got so excited that i kinda forgot my common sense for a minute! oh well, 4X4 here i come!
The only thing that is going to change your CV angles will be to raise the car or decrease your overall tire/wheel diameter and then raising the car back up to the height that it is now. in doing this, you are also changing your final drive gearing as well though. I have this situation on my F Prod CRX and I am planning to remove my 15 inch wheels with 23.0 OD slicks and go to 13 inch wheels with 21.0 OD slicks. At the same time, I will change my final drive ration from a 4.7 back to a 4.2 and this will give me a wash on the gearing and let the outer CV sit one inch closer to the ground thus decreasing the CV angles. Additionally, it will decrease the my steering tie rod angles as well and improve my bump steer.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah i see what ur saying. the problem for me is that i bought my car with 17's and lowered on springs. i want to drop to 16's, but increase the tire size (from 205/40/17 to 205 or 215/40/16) which means that i will have to raise the car higher than it is now. i don't really race and i already have an ITR tranny so the gears will be fine for me, i just want a nice street car that will handle good and be predictable. i don't know whats causing the axles to bind, but i've tried everything to fix it and no luck. i guess i'll just have to raise it and deal with it. lol, i saw these and got so excited that i kinda forgot my common sense for a minute! oh well, 4X4 here i come!
Re: (xtremegsr273)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you serious? You don't have any concern about bump-steer and a lack of suspension travel? Bottoming out? Wow. You don't consider serious toe change an alignment problem?
Serious negative camber on a street car isn't a problem, right? Great. Run -2 degrees camber on your street car with street tires. Enjoy replacing them every 8 months and suffering from increased tendency to hydroplane, decreased traction .................</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've been driving on a 94 Civic hatchback that's lowered 3" with GC sleeves (400f/250r) for over 6 years. In that time I've put over 50k miles on it, and I've only replaced the tires once (205/40/16). The tires I currently have are a 200 tread-wear and have no uneven wear. I drive the car in all conditions and have never had any hydroplaning issues. My car has NO camber kit, so that gives you an idea of the amount of negative camber I show...
It's time to put that old "camber causes tire wear" myth to rest (it's bad toe settings).
Furthermore, no bump-steer problems have made themselves known in my 6 years of driving a lowered civic. I drive strictly on the street, so I cannot comment on any "race" issues...
Extended top mounts help the "short compression stroke" problem in the front end of civics, so no worries there. Also, I drove my stock CX shocks lowered 3" for about 50k miles until I recently swapped out for some Koni sports w/ GC top hats. All 4 of my stock shocks were in good working condition, and showed no signs of damage. They were still considerably stiffer than Koni Sports on their softest setting.
"serious toe change" from lowering is easily fixed with a 4 wheel alignment that must be done anyways whenever you change suspension components. I'm not trying to bash this product, it's just that I personally can't seem to find ANY advantages to this. I do understand that racers may be interested in this for whatever reason, but I'm talking about "lowering" in general...
Basically there is nothing to back up the statement that "This is the best lowering method" (especially since it's untested), and that is why I'm voicing my concern...
Serious negative camber on a street car isn't a problem, right? Great. Run -2 degrees camber on your street car with street tires. Enjoy replacing them every 8 months and suffering from increased tendency to hydroplane, decreased traction .................</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've been driving on a 94 Civic hatchback that's lowered 3" with GC sleeves (400f/250r) for over 6 years. In that time I've put over 50k miles on it, and I've only replaced the tires once (205/40/16). The tires I currently have are a 200 tread-wear and have no uneven wear. I drive the car in all conditions and have never had any hydroplaning issues. My car has NO camber kit, so that gives you an idea of the amount of negative camber I show...
It's time to put that old "camber causes tire wear" myth to rest (it's bad toe settings).
Furthermore, no bump-steer problems have made themselves known in my 6 years of driving a lowered civic. I drive strictly on the street, so I cannot comment on any "race" issues...
Extended top mounts help the "short compression stroke" problem in the front end of civics, so no worries there. Also, I drove my stock CX shocks lowered 3" for about 50k miles until I recently swapped out for some Koni sports w/ GC top hats. All 4 of my stock shocks were in good working condition, and showed no signs of damage. They were still considerably stiffer than Koni Sports on their softest setting.
"serious toe change" from lowering is easily fixed with a 4 wheel alignment that must be done anyways whenever you change suspension components. I'm not trying to bash this product, it's just that I personally can't seem to find ANY advantages to this. I do understand that racers may be interested in this for whatever reason, but I'm talking about "lowering" in general...
Basically there is nothing to back up the statement that "This is the best lowering method" (especially since it's untested), and that is why I'm voicing my concern...
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From: The Hudson
Re: (suspendedHatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great. Run -2 degrees camber on your street car with street tires. Enjoy replacing them every 8 months
If you're running high performance tires with a lot of negative camber on your street car, well not a lot can be said for you.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I run over -3* sometimes, and haven't had a single problem driving on near race rubber.
Hell, I get more wear out of mine usually than alot of the kids running camber kits without getting alignments, because even if you have zero camber, you still neet to set your toe. If you don't, your tires will look like this \ / (looking down) and you will still be scrubbing off rubber; just over the whole tire, and not just the inside edge.
I got two race seasons and about 30K street miles on a set of Azenis 215s, and they still had legal amounts of tread. I only got rid of them becuase they would break loose less progressively on track when they get low. You should have some evidence before calling people out.
If you're running high performance tires with a lot of negative camber on your street car, well not a lot can be said for you.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I run over -3* sometimes, and haven't had a single problem driving on near race rubber.
Hell, I get more wear out of mine usually than alot of the kids running camber kits without getting alignments, because even if you have zero camber, you still neet to set your toe. If you don't, your tires will look like this \ / (looking down) and you will still be scrubbing off rubber; just over the whole tire, and not just the inside edge.
I got two race seasons and about 30K street miles on a set of Azenis 215s, and they still had legal amounts of tread. I only got rid of them becuase they would break loose less progressively on track when they get low. You should have some evidence before calling people out.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Sherman Oaks, CA, United States
Re: (suspendedHatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Serious negative camber on a street car isn't a problem, right? Great. Run -2 degrees camber on your street car with street tires. Enjoy replacing them every 8 months and suffering from increased tendency to hydroplane, decreased traction over loose and wet surfaces, decreased traction for accelerating and braking. Because wild negative camber is good for EVERY application *sarcasm. If you're running high performance tires with a lot of negative camber on your street car, well not a lot can be said for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've got -4.75* rear camber on my Triumph Spitfire, and in 10k miles, can't even tell that the rear tires have worn, at all. Shimmed to near 0 toe, even with the massive camber, and being rwd, and its fine. The front of the car has 0 camber, but suffers from alot of toe changes, from thrashed bushings, and that wear is visible after 10k street miles.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's time to put that old "camber causes tire wear" myth to rest (it's bad toe settings).</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Extended top mounts help the "short compression stroke" problem in the front end of civics, so no worries there. Also, I drove my stock CX shocks lowered 3" for about 50k miles until I recently swapped out for some Koni sports w/ GC top hats. All 4 of my stock shocks were in good working condition, and showed no signs of damage. They were still considerably stiffer than Koni Sports on their softest setting.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm down almost 3" in my Intega, with the GC upper mounts, and I hit the UCAs into the chassis before the shock fully bottoms out. At least, I think its before, but it could be at the same time, I suppose. Either way, I've hit the wheel well with the UCA. Time for stiffer springs and a higher ride height for me. Too bad I don't have enough camber now, and will lose even more raising it.
I've got -4.75* rear camber on my Triumph Spitfire, and in 10k miles, can't even tell that the rear tires have worn, at all. Shimmed to near 0 toe, even with the massive camber, and being rwd, and its fine. The front of the car has 0 camber, but suffers from alot of toe changes, from thrashed bushings, and that wear is visible after 10k street miles.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's time to put that old "camber causes tire wear" myth to rest (it's bad toe settings).</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Extended top mounts help the "short compression stroke" problem in the front end of civics, so no worries there. Also, I drove my stock CX shocks lowered 3" for about 50k miles until I recently swapped out for some Koni sports w/ GC top hats. All 4 of my stock shocks were in good working condition, and showed no signs of damage. They were still considerably stiffer than Koni Sports on their softest setting.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm down almost 3" in my Intega, with the GC upper mounts, and I hit the UCAs into the chassis before the shock fully bottoms out. At least, I think its before, but it could be at the same time, I suppose. Either way, I've hit the wheel well with the UCA. Time for stiffer springs and a higher ride height for me. Too bad I don't have enough camber now, and will lose even more raising it.
Re: (Jmunk)
Another interesting point about this lowering kit: Since your moving only the wheels up, it will bring your LCAs closer to the ground reducing ground clearance (when compared to lowering springs w/ the same drop). Since it's only 1.5", I doubt that matters though...
If the car had additional lowering with coil-overs, I would be concerned...
If the car had additional lowering with coil-overs, I would be concerned...
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,407
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From: Locash
Re: (94eg!)
I'm going to apologize for my wordiness. Most of the people involved in this thread will not benefit from this encyclopedic reply. In an effort to cut down on the bs, I'm not going to respond to certain arguments/comments like "Those have been out for years" or, "I already have GC tophats (not an exact quote)" or, "here's the history of Ryane Motorsports". That kind of pointlessness will collapse on it's own. Here's my attempt at a summary:
-*Lowering springs/coilovers*-
--cons
alters factory suspension geometry resulting in bumpsteer (increased toe change with suspension movement; wheel tugs to the side over bumps)
reduced shock travel
reduced suspension travel
alignment changes requiring toe correction
uneven camber change from wheel to wheel (camber kit highly recommended)
excessive negative camber with excessive lowering (more than 1.75 inch drop)
ride quality suffers
axle problems at excessive drop
--costs
springs or coilovers, struts, alignment, camber kit required for coilovers or for drops over 1.3 inches on a STREET car w/STREET tires. optional; top hats, camber kit
--pros
lower center of gravity
reduced body roll
-*moving the wheel mounting points up*- (the method, not an endorsement of any particular product including the example link I started this thread off with)
--cons
high cost
does not correct axle angle?! (hardly hurts it either at 1.5 inches of drop)
does not increase spring rate (not always a con. (doesn't prevent you from increasing the spring rate))
--costs Ryane kit or custom fab$$$. optional; springs, struts, or sways
if you're doing this on a street car, just get swaybars
--pros
lower center of gravity
doesn't require toe correction
doesn't cause bumpsteer
doesn't alter factory suspension geometry
reduced unsprung weight
doesn't hurt ride quality
I know there are people out there running ridiculous drops with race tires on the street. Those people live in an alternate reality and I envy them. There are no speed bumps, potholes, steep driveways, the roads are new and always clean and dry, putting lots of miles on that soft rubber and heat cycling it so that they're useless on the track, unlimited funds for tires, driving recklessly on the street in order to justify the setup and yet having no reprocussions... Of course these people don't experience camber wear!!! It's a fantasy world. Even most race tracks don't experience these laboratory conditions.
No, seriously. I made the distinction "STREET tires". Racing and high performance tires as we all know have special consideration giving to the inside edges of the tires because they are made to be driven with a lot of negative camber. Call the manufacturers if you don't believe me. This very fact proves my point.
Street tires are not made to be driven with a lot of negative camber, and as a result of that, they suffer camber wear causing you to have to replace them frequently. Now why on god's green earth would you run soft rubber on the street? The cons far outweigh the benefits. In fact, it's dangerous in most climates and in most real world situations especially if you are also running high spring rates and you're lowered excessively. A more moderately tuned car is safer and handles better (mid grade tires, a reasonable drop, reasonable spring rate).
Camber wear a myth? No. You can talk all you want about your experience in your fantasy land. But believe me, your "experience" is not all that impressive. There is plenty of documented proof to the contrary.
Another thing I love about excessive camber on a street car is when you drive onto a seam on the freeway.
Also, I don't understand why you would dump your car more than 2 inches or why you would want more than 3 degrees of negative camber. Are you trying to emulate a real racing team? You know that these settings hurt handling except when you start custom fabbing parts in order to correct the car's suspension geometry. Can you tell me how you arrived at those settings (how you concluded that they benefit the car's handling).
-*Lowering springs/coilovers*-
--cons
alters factory suspension geometry resulting in bumpsteer (increased toe change with suspension movement; wheel tugs to the side over bumps)
reduced shock travel
reduced suspension travel
alignment changes requiring toe correction
uneven camber change from wheel to wheel (camber kit highly recommended)
excessive negative camber with excessive lowering (more than 1.75 inch drop)
ride quality suffers
axle problems at excessive drop
--costs
springs or coilovers, struts, alignment, camber kit required for coilovers or for drops over 1.3 inches on a STREET car w/STREET tires. optional; top hats, camber kit
--pros
lower center of gravity
reduced body roll
-*moving the wheel mounting points up*- (the method, not an endorsement of any particular product including the example link I started this thread off with)
--cons
high cost
does not correct axle angle?! (hardly hurts it either at 1.5 inches of drop)
does not increase spring rate (not always a con. (doesn't prevent you from increasing the spring rate))
--costs Ryane kit or custom fab$$$. optional; springs, struts, or sways
if you're doing this on a street car, just get swaybars
--pros
lower center of gravity
doesn't require toe correction
doesn't cause bumpsteer
doesn't alter factory suspension geometry
reduced unsprung weight
doesn't hurt ride quality
I know there are people out there running ridiculous drops with race tires on the street. Those people live in an alternate reality and I envy them. There are no speed bumps, potholes, steep driveways, the roads are new and always clean and dry, putting lots of miles on that soft rubber and heat cycling it so that they're useless on the track, unlimited funds for tires, driving recklessly on the street in order to justify the setup and yet having no reprocussions... Of course these people don't experience camber wear!!! It's a fantasy world. Even most race tracks don't experience these laboratory conditions.
No, seriously. I made the distinction "STREET tires". Racing and high performance tires as we all know have special consideration giving to the inside edges of the tires because they are made to be driven with a lot of negative camber. Call the manufacturers if you don't believe me. This very fact proves my point.
Street tires are not made to be driven with a lot of negative camber, and as a result of that, they suffer camber wear causing you to have to replace them frequently. Now why on god's green earth would you run soft rubber on the street? The cons far outweigh the benefits. In fact, it's dangerous in most climates and in most real world situations especially if you are also running high spring rates and you're lowered excessively. A more moderately tuned car is safer and handles better (mid grade tires, a reasonable drop, reasonable spring rate).
Camber wear a myth? No. You can talk all you want about your experience in your fantasy land. But believe me, your "experience" is not all that impressive. There is plenty of documented proof to the contrary.
Another thing I love about excessive camber on a street car is when you drive onto a seam on the freeway.
Also, I don't understand why you would dump your car more than 2 inches or why you would want more than 3 degrees of negative camber. Are you trying to emulate a real racing team? You know that these settings hurt handling except when you start custom fabbing parts in order to correct the car's suspension geometry. Can you tell me how you arrived at those settings (how you concluded that they benefit the car's handling).
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,407
Likes: 5
From: Locash
Re: This is the best lowering method (suspendedHatch)
Oh I'm so relieved that these tires are a myth. I thought they were due for replacement. Incidentally, the camber is roughly -1.75 front and -1 rear, very conservative or a reasonable street setting depending on your perspective. Toe is within spec. This is with a lot of highway miles on tires I use during the winter (low end Kumhos). I didn't take the alignment out because I didn't anticipate so much freeway driving and for such a long winter. Normally winters here in San Diego are non-existant.
This is proof of my alignment. Yes, I know it's illegible. Wouldn't want you haters to glean any info.
be professional
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 14,842
Likes: 13
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: This is the best lowering method (suspendedHatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Oh I'm so relieved that these tires are a myth. I thought they were due for replacement. Incidentally, the camber is roughly -1.75 front and -1 rear, very conservative or a reasonable street setting depending on your perspective. Toe is within spec. This is with a lot of highway miles on tires I use during the winter (low end Kumhos). I didn't take the alignment out because I didn't anticipate so much freeway driving and for such a long winter. Normally winters here in San Diego are non-existant.
This is proof of my alignment. Yes, I know it's illegible. Wouldn't want you haters to glean any info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
"Within spec" is not the same as being set to 0.00" at all four corners. That's toe wear, dude. Camber won't round off a shoulder like that. Maybe you should start doing your own alignments instead of taking it to the lazy incompetent folks at PepBoys.
Here's my Kumho Ecsta 711s:
These came from a car at stock ride height. Both tires have the exact same amount of mileage. The tire on the left was in the rear where toe was set perfectly to 0.00" on both sides; the one on the right was in the front, which had massive toe-out from a collision and bent tie rods. Notice the severely worn shoulder which I highlighted?
Oh I'm so relieved that these tires are a myth. I thought they were due for replacement. Incidentally, the camber is roughly -1.75 front and -1 rear, very conservative or a reasonable street setting depending on your perspective. Toe is within spec. This is with a lot of highway miles on tires I use during the winter (low end Kumhos). I didn't take the alignment out because I didn't anticipate so much freeway driving and for such a long winter. Normally winters here in San Diego are non-existant.
This is proof of my alignment. Yes, I know it's illegible. Wouldn't want you haters to glean any info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>"Within spec" is not the same as being set to 0.00" at all four corners. That's toe wear, dude. Camber won't round off a shoulder like that. Maybe you should start doing your own alignments instead of taking it to the lazy incompetent folks at PepBoys.
Here's my Kumho Ecsta 711s:
These came from a car at stock ride height. Both tires have the exact same amount of mileage. The tire on the left was in the rear where toe was set perfectly to 0.00" on both sides; the one on the right was in the front, which had massive toe-out from a collision and bent tie rods. Notice the severely worn shoulder which I highlighted?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,622
Likes: 0
From: The Hudson
Re: (suspendedHatch)
You're making a lot of assumptions in your post.
I live in the Northeast, in the center of a dilapidated industrial city, and the ride in my car is absolutely unbearable for me. I post quite often recomending soft-ish spring rates on the street. But honestly, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
My 'race' rubber is a street tire; I'm in a street class when I autocross, so I do not own a set of 'real' race tires (slicks).
I have never heard anything like this; do you have a link of some type?
I highly disagree. I do all my own alignments, so I know exactly what my settings are, and I know for a fact that when the toe is off is when the inside wears. The more camber you have, the more sensitive the tires are to toe, but it is infact the toe causing wear.
Sometimes I have multiple events back to back, so I run my Azenis on the street to save me from changing tires, and I wouldn't say the car is more dangerous. I will agree that when you're running high rates with big swaybars to dial in oversteer, it can get way out of hand very quickly for an inexperienced driver.
I have documented log books of my track and autocross days. Setup, tire pressures, camber, alignment settings, tire temps etc.; so yeah, I guess I like to play race team.
I am dumped with all that camber, because I'm racing on the cheap, and I don't have another car that I can dedicate to racing. I have no camber kits, so I have to drop the car to get the camber that I need for optimum performance. No fabbed parts, no crazy setups, just GCs on Konis; using toe plates to do the alignment and bathroom scales to cornerweight.
Now, with that being said:
These are all tradeoffs of any suspension, and can be corrected as stated above. Every car on the street has some amount of bumpsteer, lowered or not.
Suspension travel can be taken care of for much less than the alternative lowering method.
I know my Honda came with uneven camber from the factory, as I'm sure most production cars do, due to weight distribution, and excessive camber isn't always a bad thing.
Ride quality isn't really a direct factor of drop, although you should run higher rates when dropped, which is really what leads to bad ride quality; assuming suspension travel has been addressed.
While I get where you're coming from, as these are things to be considered when messing with the suspension, they're not always that detrimental depending on the use of the vehicle. But mine is a pretty rare case, and most people don't need to be dumped, or run sticky tires and race suspensions.
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
I know there are people out there running ridiculous drops with race tires on the street. Those people live in an alternate reality and I envy them. There are no speed bumps, potholes, steep driveways, the roads are new and always clean and dry, putting lots of miles on that soft rubber and heat cycling it so that they're useless on the track, unlimited funds for tires, driving recklessly on the street in order to justify the setup and yet having no reprocussions... .
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
No, seriously. I made the distinction "STREET tires".
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
Racing and high performance tires as we all know have special consideration giving to the inside edges of the tires because they are made to be driven with a lot of negative camber. Call the manufacturers if you don't believe me. This very fact proves my point.
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
Street tires are not made to be driven with a lot of negative camber, and as a result of that, they suffer camber wear causing you to have to replace them frequently..
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
Now why on god's green earth would you run soft rubber on the street? The cons far outweigh the benefits. In fact, it's dangerous in most climates and in most real world situations especially if you are also running high spring rates and you're lowered excessively. A more moderately tuned car is safer and handles better (mid grade tires, a reasonable drop, reasonable spring rate).
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
Also, I don't understand why you would dump your car more than 2 inches or why you would want more than 3 degrees of negative camber. Are you trying to emulate a real racing team? You know that these settings hurt handling except when you start custom fabbing parts in order to correct the car's suspension geometry. Can you tell me how you arrived at those settings (how you concluded that they benefit the car's handling).
I am dumped with all that camber, because I'm racing on the cheap, and I don't have another car that I can dedicate to racing. I have no camber kits, so I have to drop the car to get the camber that I need for optimum performance. No fabbed parts, no crazy setups, just GCs on Konis; using toe plates to do the alignment and bathroom scales to cornerweight.
Now, with that being said:
Originally Posted by suspendedHatch
--cons
alters factory suspension geometry resulting in bumpsteer (increased toe change with suspension movement; wheel tugs to the side over bumps)
reduced shock travel
reduced suspension travel
alignment changes requiring toe correction
uneven camber change from wheel to wheel (camber kit highly recommended)
excessive negative camber with excessive lowering (more than 1.75 inch drop)
ride quality suffers
axle problems at excessive drop
alters factory suspension geometry resulting in bumpsteer (increased toe change with suspension movement; wheel tugs to the side over bumps)
reduced shock travel
reduced suspension travel
alignment changes requiring toe correction
uneven camber change from wheel to wheel (camber kit highly recommended)
excessive negative camber with excessive lowering (more than 1.75 inch drop)
ride quality suffers
axle problems at excessive drop
Suspension travel can be taken care of for much less than the alternative lowering method.
I know my Honda came with uneven camber from the factory, as I'm sure most production cars do, due to weight distribution, and excessive camber isn't always a bad thing.
Ride quality isn't really a direct factor of drop, although you should run higher rates when dropped, which is really what leads to bad ride quality; assuming suspension travel has been addressed.
While I get where you're coming from, as these are things to be considered when messing with the suspension, they're not always that detrimental depending on the use of the vehicle. But mine is a pretty rare case, and most people don't need to be dumped, or run sticky tires and race suspensions.