Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question.
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From: PA
Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question.
Okay after spending the last 1/2 hour to 45mins scanning ABS postings dating back to 2002, mostly focusing on those started here or dealing with Integras I have heard all the "opinions" from good to bad.
What I really am looking to know is if those who own and operate their ITR on road course events and see track time have decided to remove or keep their abs units in their car. I'm not looking to hear: it is the best technological advancement or why would I consider doing such a thing, or even the classic ITR + ABS =
I want to know if there has been any testing of what result better results when running the car on closed course events. I can easily grab a 40/40 prop valve and make some lines and pull all the ABS gizmos and gagets...I purely am looking for any possible ITR results from those using them for event purposes and use their brakes hard.
What I really am looking to know is if those who own and operate their ITR on road course events and see track time have decided to remove or keep their abs units in their car. I'm not looking to hear: it is the best technological advancement or why would I consider doing such a thing, or even the classic ITR + ABS =
I want to know if there has been any testing of what result better results when running the car on closed course events. I can easily grab a 40/40 prop valve and make some lines and pull all the ABS gizmos and gagets...I purely am looking for any possible ITR results from those using them for event purposes and use their brakes hard.
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From: norcal/socal/central cal, Ca, usa
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (infulleffect)
I have an ITR and a track only civic w/ hawk blues.
I personally love the abs in the integra. I have engaged the abs on the track in the integra many times and it has saved me from running my car off the track.
In the civic the tires just lock up and you're SOL. I haven't ran the civic off the track yet but having abs would have calmed my nerves many times.
I would keep it on if I were you.
I personally love the abs in the integra. I have engaged the abs on the track in the integra many times and it has saved me from running my car off the track.
In the civic the tires just lock up and you're SOL. I haven't ran the civic off the track yet but having abs would have calmed my nerves many times.
I would keep it on if I were you.
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From: HP, NC, USA
Re: (powersteer)
The abs on my ITR race car is mostly just along for the ride in the dry. There is so much grip in the R compound tires that the abs never activates to keep the fronts from locking while braking in a straight line. It really helps keep the lightly loaded rears from locking, however. The ITR abs unit is well calibrated.
In the wet, the abs actually helps reduce my lap times. By that I mean, knowing abs will back me up if I get sloppy helps inspire just a little more confidence.
Modified by Track rat at 8:13 AM 3/12/2006
In the wet, the abs actually helps reduce my lap times. By that I mean, knowing abs will back me up if I get sloppy helps inspire just a little more confidence.
Modified by Track rat at 8:13 AM 3/12/2006
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (infulleffect)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infulleffect »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What I really am looking to know is if those who own and operate their ITR on road course events and see track time have decided to remove or keep their abs units in their car.
I want to know if there has been any testing of what result better results when running the car on closed course events.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You are not going to find many of us who have tracked their ITR in both the wet and the dry, and with and without ABS, and timed all four possibilities correctly.
What follows is my subjective opinion based on driving the ITR on the track for a few years.
1. In the dry: The ABS is so close to threshold braking that in my opinion it's a complete toss up whether or not you'd be able to stop the car faster without it. This particular driver can get around Summit Point in 1:28 in a relatively stock car (last year), with only the lightest hint of ABS in T5 or if an unusual exigency presents itself. My opinion is that the ABS presents a considerable safety advantage, and removing it will not make you faster in the dry, so I would leave it.
2. In the wet: In my opinion, the ABS is slightly aggressive in the wet, and there is a chance that a good driver would be able to stop the car a little faster without ABS. You will have to decide for yourself if you drive in the wet enough for it to be worth disabling the ABS at the expense of having to run the risk of lockup and flat spotting in the dry.
In both the wet and the dry, the stability afforded by the ABS in an emergency could make it important for most drivers to leave the ABS installed and working properly.
If you are able to do it, seek out the user "back in black" (Jason Franza). Jason is an accomplished Honda Challenge driver who has won championships in the past. He would be able to give you a very intelligent discussion about the ITR ABS and whether or not you should leave it alone.
In races of years gone by, Jason could be seen to be able to do visibly deeper into corners than his competitors in non-ITR, non-ABS vehicles.
What I really am looking to know is if those who own and operate their ITR on road course events and see track time have decided to remove or keep their abs units in their car.
I want to know if there has been any testing of what result better results when running the car on closed course events.</TD></TR></TABLE>You are not going to find many of us who have tracked their ITR in both the wet and the dry, and with and without ABS, and timed all four possibilities correctly.
What follows is my subjective opinion based on driving the ITR on the track for a few years.
1. In the dry: The ABS is so close to threshold braking that in my opinion it's a complete toss up whether or not you'd be able to stop the car faster without it. This particular driver can get around Summit Point in 1:28 in a relatively stock car (last year), with only the lightest hint of ABS in T5 or if an unusual exigency presents itself. My opinion is that the ABS presents a considerable safety advantage, and removing it will not make you faster in the dry, so I would leave it.
2. In the wet: In my opinion, the ABS is slightly aggressive in the wet, and there is a chance that a good driver would be able to stop the car a little faster without ABS. You will have to decide for yourself if you drive in the wet enough for it to be worth disabling the ABS at the expense of having to run the risk of lockup and flat spotting in the dry.
In both the wet and the dry, the stability afforded by the ABS in an emergency could make it important for most drivers to leave the ABS installed and working properly.
If you are able to do it, seek out the user "back in black" (Jason Franza). Jason is an accomplished Honda Challenge driver who has won championships in the past. He would be able to give you a very intelligent discussion about the ITR ABS and whether or not you should leave it alone.
In races of years gone by, Jason could be seen to be able to do visibly deeper into corners than his competitors in non-ITR, non-ABS vehicles.
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Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1. In the dry: The ABS is so close to threshold braking that in my opinion it's a complete toss up whether or not you'd be able to stop the car faster without it. This particular driver can get around Summit Point in 1:28 in a relatively stock car (last year), with only the lightest hint of ABS in T5 or if an unusual exigency presents itself. My opinion is that the ABS presents a considerable safety advantage, and removing it will not make you faster in the dry, so I would leave it.
2. In the wet: In my opinion, the ABS is slightly aggressive in the wet, and there is a chance that a good driver would be able to stop the car a little faster without ABS. You will have to decide for yourself if you drive in the wet enough for it to be worth disabling the ABS at the expense of having to run the risk of lockup and flat spotting in the dry.
In both the wet and the dry, the stability afforded by the ABS in an emergency could make it important for most drivers to leave the ABS installed and working properly.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Remember, your best stopping distances will be achieved using threshold braking (using the brakes on the threshold of locking up, but not actually locking up) - in which case, ABS is not activated at all. ABS activates only if you lock up the wheels. And if you do lock up the wheels, as George indicates, it's nice to have for the stability it adds in an emergency.
2. In the wet: In my opinion, the ABS is slightly aggressive in the wet, and there is a chance that a good driver would be able to stop the car a little faster without ABS. You will have to decide for yourself if you drive in the wet enough for it to be worth disabling the ABS at the expense of having to run the risk of lockup and flat spotting in the dry.
In both the wet and the dry, the stability afforded by the ABS in an emergency could make it important for most drivers to leave the ABS installed and working properly.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Remember, your best stopping distances will be achieved using threshold braking (using the brakes on the threshold of locking up, but not actually locking up) - in which case, ABS is not activated at all. ABS activates only if you lock up the wheels. And if you do lock up the wheels, as George indicates, it's nice to have for the stability it adds in an emergency.
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From: kuidaore
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (nsxtasy)
I think another key thing to add is the to biggest things that contribute to making the R a great car that Track Rat already eluded to in the braking department on track while keeping the ABS is the addition of at least Track worthy or R compound brake pads and some sticky/R compound Tires, and as a good suggestion some high temp brake fluid. The car pretty much stops on a dime after the addition of these things, skill level not considered.
I agree with what both George and Ken said above. But in my experience related to Georges comment about the ABS being a bit intrusive in the wet, it really depends alot on the tires used and the extent of the wet IE pooling water and driving rain or just mist and a wet surface. Traction and braking is significantly improved when comparing sticky street tires such as Azenis or even RE010's to say R compound Kumho V700's or even Hoosier R3S03's at 3/4 to full tread depth on a wet surface or even moderate rain.
I've deactivated my ABS for Autocross on several occasions. Honestly I'm not used to it this way and or just not that good, so I usually get a decent skid going before I react and pump the pedal. But when I use the car regularly on track at this point, I rarely if at all dig into full on ABS activation in the dry to the wet, not including pooling surfaces. Even coming down say turns 5 into 6 at Watkins Glen or even into turn 1 there I am not into ABS in the dry.
The introduction of R compound pads and tires make a noticable difference with the cars capabilities. But if you are proficient without ABS then it becomes preference.
I agree with what both George and Ken said above. But in my experience related to Georges comment about the ABS being a bit intrusive in the wet, it really depends alot on the tires used and the extent of the wet IE pooling water and driving rain or just mist and a wet surface. Traction and braking is significantly improved when comparing sticky street tires such as Azenis or even RE010's to say R compound Kumho V700's or even Hoosier R3S03's at 3/4 to full tread depth on a wet surface or even moderate rain.
I've deactivated my ABS for Autocross on several occasions. Honestly I'm not used to it this way and or just not that good, so I usually get a decent skid going before I react and pump the pedal. But when I use the car regularly on track at this point, I rarely if at all dig into full on ABS activation in the dry to the wet, not including pooling surfaces. Even coming down say turns 5 into 6 at Watkins Glen or even into turn 1 there I am not into ABS in the dry.
The introduction of R compound pads and tires make a noticable difference with the cars capabilities. But if you are proficient without ABS then it becomes preference.
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Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (infulleffect)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infulleffect »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ITR + ABS = </TD></TR></TABLE>
^^ Agreed
There seems to be a split opinion on who uses ABS on a track-only car, I definitely like having them and I don't think straight-line stopping distance is affected negatively by them.
</TD></TR></TABLE>^^ Agreed
There seems to be a split opinion on who uses ABS on a track-only car, I definitely like having them and I don't think straight-line stopping distance is affected negatively by them.
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Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (Chris F)
My ITR is a track only car. I now always use Hawk Blue pads front and rear in both wet and dry with ABS. I find that with this relatively aggressive brake compound front/rear that I get very balanced brake bias. I've tried it in the past with Blues up front and less aggressive in the rear but found that little braking was actually being accomplished in the rear. ABS really enables me to brake deeply with an aggressive compound all around without the fear of regulary locking the rears as I enter a corner.
I had a race at Mosport last September where my ABS was knocked out of commission thanks to a hard hit earlier in the race. Without ABS and Hawk Blues at all corners, it made it a handful coming into some hard braking corners thanks to the rear wheels locking in some corners. Definitely not the fastest or most confidence inspiring situation during competition.
In order to optimize braking on the track, I believe you really need to find the best possible balance front to rear. I suppose you could consider a bias control, but in reality it will simply reduce braking in the front in relation to the rear. Maintaining my ABS allows me to maximize braking through various brake compounds while maintaining proper balance front to rear, regardless of track conditions.
BTW I've only ever run this set up with R compound tires.
I had a race at Mosport last September where my ABS was knocked out of commission thanks to a hard hit earlier in the race. Without ABS and Hawk Blues at all corners, it made it a handful coming into some hard braking corners thanks to the rear wheels locking in some corners. Definitely not the fastest or most confidence inspiring situation during competition.
In order to optimize braking on the track, I believe you really need to find the best possible balance front to rear. I suppose you could consider a bias control, but in reality it will simply reduce braking in the front in relation to the rear. Maintaining my ABS allows me to maximize braking through various brake compounds while maintaining proper balance front to rear, regardless of track conditions.
BTW I've only ever run this set up with R compound tires.
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From: PA
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (TPB)
another nice additon to the thread...it looks like with out the ABS the car for track purposes loses a lot of its balance from front to back, and I do realize that there is some realation to the brakes and tires used...but it seems more beneficial to keep it in service...thank you all...looks like I am plugging it back in and seeing how it does for me
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From: kuidaore
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (infulleffect)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by infulleffect »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">another nice additon to the thread...it looks like with out the ABS the car for track purposes loses a lot of its balance from front to back, and I do realize that there is some realation to the brakes and tires used...but it seems more beneficial to keep it in service...thank you all...looks like I am plugging it back in and seeing how it does for me </TD></TR></TABLE>
Here's a constructive idea: Since it's the beginning of autocross season around here, why not get your brake setup in order, IE pads, fluid, tires, pressures, suspension settings and then take it to a few local autocrosses and or the beginning test and tunes both for autocross and or track events.
Don't just take our words for it. Actually take it out and drive a course both with the ABS working and then run a lap with it deactivated (it's easy, just pull the fuse). You'll get a very good feeling for the car and your abilities. Who knows you might be better than the car, or just like it better and or care to learn to drive sans ABS. But for sure I wouldn't make a complete decision based just on what we posted in here. Autocross is your safest option for testing. I know how I tested and know that I prefer ABS active. But I woulda never known for sure if I didn't actually try it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Here's a constructive idea: Since it's the beginning of autocross season around here, why not get your brake setup in order, IE pads, fluid, tires, pressures, suspension settings and then take it to a few local autocrosses and or the beginning test and tunes both for autocross and or track events.
Don't just take our words for it. Actually take it out and drive a course both with the ABS working and then run a lap with it deactivated (it's easy, just pull the fuse). You'll get a very good feeling for the car and your abilities. Who knows you might be better than the car, or just like it better and or care to learn to drive sans ABS. But for sure I wouldn't make a complete decision based just on what we posted in here. Autocross is your safest option for testing. I know how I tested and know that I prefer ABS active. But I woulda never known for sure if I didn't actually try it.
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Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (1GreyTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know how I tested and know that I prefer ABS active. But I woulda never known for sure if I didn't actually try it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Anton, your advice is good but your method of testing is flawed.
If you simply pull a fuse to disable ABS, your rear brakes will lock up long before your front brakes. To do a true test of whether or not one likes ABS, one would have to change the brake proportioning valve during the non-ABS portion.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Anton, your advice is good but your method of testing is flawed.
If you simply pull a fuse to disable ABS, your rear brakes will lock up long before your front brakes. To do a true test of whether or not one likes ABS, one would have to change the brake proportioning valve during the non-ABS portion.
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Re: (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The abs on my ITR race car is mostly just along for the ride in the dry. There is so much grip in the R compound tires that the abs never activates to keep the fronts from locking while braking in a straight line. It really helps keep the lightly loaded rears from locking, however. The ITR abs unit is well calibrated.
In the wet, the abs actually helps reduce my lap times. By that I mean, knowing abs will back me up if I get sloppy helps inspire just a little more confidence.
Modified by Track rat at 8:13 AM 3/12/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly what He said.
In the wet, the abs actually helps reduce my lap times. By that I mean, knowing abs will back me up if I get sloppy helps inspire just a little more confidence.
Modified by Track rat at 8:13 AM 3/12/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>
Exactly what He said.
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From: kuidaore
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (Reid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Anton, your advice is good but your method of testing is flawed.
If you simply pull a fuse to disable ABS, your rear brakes will lock up long before your front brakes. To do a true test of whether or not one likes ABS, one would have to change the brake proportioning valve during the non-ABS portion.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Understood. But guess what, I run out of talent before your method would do me any benefit.
I was dealt skills that provide for me to excel in other ways. As I grow older I just learn to accept it all in stride and work with what I'm given. I can cook my *** off and entertain as I do so. But I need the ABS that the R was God given
Anton, your advice is good but your method of testing is flawed.
If you simply pull a fuse to disable ABS, your rear brakes will lock up long before your front brakes. To do a true test of whether or not one likes ABS, one would have to change the brake proportioning valve during the non-ABS portion.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Understood. But guess what, I run out of talent before your method would do me any benefit.
I was dealt skills that provide for me to excel in other ways. As I grow older I just learn to accept it all in stride and work with what I'm given. I can cook my *** off and entertain as I do so. But I need the ABS that the R was God given
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From: HP, NC, USA
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (Reid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
To do a true test of whether or not one likes ABS, one would have to change the brake proportioning valve during the non-ABS portion.</TD></TR></TABLE>
True. However, I've experimented with several less aggressive rear pad compounds to 'proportion' the rear brakes to my liking and it works pretty well.
To do a true test of whether or not one likes ABS, one would have to change the brake proportioning valve during the non-ABS portion.</TD></TR></TABLE>
True. However, I've experimented with several less aggressive rear pad compounds to 'proportion' the rear brakes to my liking and it works pretty well.
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Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (Track rat)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">True. However, I've experimented with several less aggressive rear pad compounds to 'proportion' the rear brakes to my liking and it works pretty well. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I was an idiot and broke my ABS in the past. To add to my brilliance, I had removed the ABS light from the cluster years ago when switching clusters. I had no idea the ABS was broken.
With Spec VR's on the front and Spec C's on the rear, the rear brakes would lock up long before the fronts. Perhaps with Spec VR's in the front and stock pads in the rear, the fronts would lock up first. I cannot verify this though.
I was an idiot and broke my ABS in the past. To add to my brilliance, I had removed the ABS light from the cluster years ago when switching clusters. I had no idea the ABS was broken.
With Spec VR's on the front and Spec C's on the rear, the rear brakes would lock up long before the fronts. Perhaps with Spec VR's in the front and stock pads in the rear, the fronts would lock up first. I cannot verify this though.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (Reid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With Spec VR's on the front and Spec C's on the rear....</TD></TR></TABLE>
LOL... Well, that's exactly what I use, so I must be sure not to blow the ABS fuse.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can cook my *** off and entertain as I do so. </TD></TR></TABLE>
We'll uh.... We'll be right over!
LOL... Well, that's exactly what I use, so I must be sure not to blow the ABS fuse.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1GreyTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can cook my *** off and entertain as I do so. </TD></TR></TABLE>
We'll uh.... We'll be right over!
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From: HP, NC, USA
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (George Knighton)
I run Hawk Blues up front and Carbotech Panther + in rear, seems to balance out pretty well. Occasionally get an abs pulse unlocking the inside rear, but almost never in a straight line.
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From: kuidaore
Re: Attention ITR Track attackers...brake question. (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We'll uh.... We'll be right over!</TD></TR></TABLE>
No problem. Just meet us up at The Glen every September, I do a BBQ for the event. This year will be the third year in a row.
We'll uh.... We'll be right over!</TD></TR></TABLE>
No problem. Just meet us up at The Glen every September, I do a BBQ for the event. This year will be the third year in a row.
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