I have a heartbreaking story....

So I have spent a lot of time & money on rebuilding my engine, and after I got it back last November, I have put on 3,000 miles to break-in slowly and didn’t have any problems at all. It was not until recently I brought the revs to VTEC range and notice the “hicciping” which I posted earlier:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1522896

In solving the problem, I have replaced the plugs, wires, rotor & cap with brand new but it didn’t help. So last weekend I decided to take the car out for some data-logging just to make the A/F is good. Spent almost 2 hours on the highway doing back & forth 2nd & 3rd gear redline, the O2 graphs read 13.1 to 13.5 consistently without any dips.

Still couldn’t figure out the problem, I decide to turn around and head home. I was driving out the exit doing about 60mph 2nd gear and suddenly the motor shut out on me. There were white smoke coming out from the breather filter, I pulled the dip stick out and there were smoke coming out from there as well. The oil level was good, as I have topped it up just the day before.

So I got the car towed to my mechanic’s shop, he pulled the plugs out and was shocked. The plug from cylinder #2 has been partially melted or crushed in. At this point its hard to tell whether it was hit or melted but the tip of the plug including part of the threaded area was badly damaged. There’s a very good chance something has dropped in the chamber. However, the other plugs in cylinder #1, 3 & 4 were in perfect shape

What’s worse is the motor was seized as he couldn’t turn the crank. Basically my motor is fucked. They have yet rip my motor apart so it’s still guessing game here as to what had happened in the motor. From what I can tell, the timing was fine.
Any ideas as to what could have caused this, and if it could be the machine shops fault. They rebuild my bottom end with Type S pistons and Kaizenspeed BS eliminator kit.

I will post pictures once the shop rip apart the motor, but for now I want to hear what you guys think about this accident. Its sad because I was thinking to hit the dyno soon but now **** happens.

Anyways, I would have to start all over again. I’m preparing for the worst and expect only the valvetrain survived from this accident. What do all of you experts recommend for the bottom end to make it stronger & reliable?

My set up was...
H22A4 - 12.2 compression on 94 Octane…

TWM ITBs w/ filters
AEM EMS & wideband
RC 440cc
Jun camshafts
Jun valvesprings
Jun cam gears (0,0)
Portflow retainers
Supertech flat valves
SMSP header
3” exhaust (no cat)
P&P head, milled 0.023thou
Type S pistons
Spoon thin headgasket
Kaizenspeed balance shaft eliminator kit
UR pulleys
Jun flywheel
NGK –7 copper plugs
MSD plug wires
HKG ground
Sun hyper voltage system

 

I'm sorry to hear about your luck. A few things though.... first off, your air fuels are too lean for my likings. The second, hardly anyone will bore/hone the FRM lined cylinder walls. Did this shop hone the cylinders before installing the new ones?

 

sorry to hear about your accident, i always looked towards your setup as a goal to build towards, i have similar parts in mind...please let me know what the issue was. good luck...

 

once you get it apart, you will be able to see what failed, take your evidence to the shop that did the work and see what they say

for 250whp....i would say send your head to RLZ, 12.2 compression would be ok, lighter rods, balanced out underneath, contact 2point6 and see if you can get a set of the new web cams, and your itbs plus the smsp....youre set

 

your problem is pretty much what everybody told you would happen with the setup you went with....
type s pistons with milled head, spoon thin head gasket and i think you had some oversized valves too? not a good idea...
sorry to hear leo....should of got the motor clayed...you got your type s pistons which are only 11:1 but then you milled and used thin headgasket...thats what happens

 

Well, Im sad to say Ive been watching this setup for a while and loved the idea.. Wish it had lasted, and I have no idea why you were getting the hiccup as most others, otherwise we woulda helped you correct it...

To answer your title... To attain 250whp you desire I guess you probably will be building the bottom end. I wish you had dyno'd the motor. I bet you were alot closer than you know.. honda318x was running a motor closer than yours to stock and put down just about 10hp shy of it. I guess your two options are to stroke the motor out more to increase compression and trq, or to bore the block out as 2point6 has... Those are the easiest two options... I wouldnt lose the JUN stuff ever... The ITB's cost you a fortune and can put down good numbers when tuned right as you have experience with... And your not going to beat your SMSP header... You dont have too many options to attain that goal.. Go bigger or go longer... Or BOTH... Thats my 2 cents.. And Im sure you want it to still be streetable too...

 

The valves are stock size, and the motor was clayed to ensure nothing "was" touching. If something was hitting, I suspect my motor would have failed long before hitting 3000miles.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AznBlueBoy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your problem is pretty much what everybody told you would happen with the setup you went with....
type s pistons with milled head, spoon thin head gasket and i think you had some oversized valves too? not a good idea...
sorry to hear leo....should of got the motor clayed...you got your type s pistons which are only 11:1 but then you milled and used thin headgasket...thats what happens
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Yes the shop did hone the cylinder walls prior to installing the Type S pistons, rings and rod bearings. What A/F ratio do you recommend for compression north of 12:1?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sorry to hear about your luck. A few things though.... first off, your air fuels are too lean for my likings. The second, hardly anyone will bore/hone the FRM lined cylinder walls. Did this shop hone the cylinders before installing the new ones?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

i to thought 13.5 was a bit to much .

on my f20b (11:1) it doesnt liek it that high . but on 12:1 id stick closer to 12.5-13.0.

but always always check plugs after tunnign . electronics can fail . plugs can tell alot .

im sory this happened . but the next build will be better .

btw if you start selling stuff let me know

 

oh man, sorry to see this happen Leo.

When they did the clay test they did it on the big lobe? (with the rocker arms locked?) Yes, nothing would hit when you are not in vtec, only when it runs on the big lobe will you know if you get valve/piston contact.

Hmm, something possibly in the cylinder eh? i suppose it's hard to say till you get that cylinder head off.

Man, moding cars

 

Sorry to hear that, siezed Let us know when you get it taken apart.

 

i still gotta say its the clearances.....you breaking it in for 3000miles....and then running it hard....bye bye motor....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VSBB6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The valves are stock size, and the motor was clayed to ensure nothing "was" touching. If something was hitting, I suspect my motor would have failed long before hitting 3000miles.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not that they are touching, you clay them to figure out how much clearance you have. If they were touching your car would have blown up from the initial start.

 

Cause of failure:

One of the valves stem snapped and dropped into cyclinder #2, causing two other broken valves and bented one other valve. Piston #2 is completely shattered, rod is bent, piston rings have crushed into many pieces and dropped in the oil pan.

The valves and pistons in cyc #1, #3 & #4 are still in very good shape after 3000k, it was evidently not clearance issue. The setup was perfectly safe if the valves didn't fail on me. Just a word of warning to those who's considering Supertech, Ive learned it the hard way.

 

Damn, that seems to kinda go against the grain. I mean, i seem to recall people preferring supertech over skunks or ferreas. Glad you figured it out, and good luck on the rebuild

 

Has anyone else had a Supertech valve break on them? What is "stronger" than Supertech?

 

prbly ferreras

 

consider that fact that you may have floated a valve, what rpm did you rev out to when this happened?? are your valve springs hard enough for that?

 

Also with the raised compression, did you drop the plugs a heat range or two?

 

Wow, that sux. I bet that ruined your day. Got any more pictures of the carnage? What all is salvagable? Well, good luck with the rebuild.

 

Im running Jun valve springs. It happened when i was revving to 5K just before hitting vtec.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">consider that fact that you may have floated a valve, what rpm did you rev out to when this happened?? are your valve springs hard enough for that?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I was running -7 NGK iridiums.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94vtecmn &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also with the raised compression, did you drop the plugs a heat range or two?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

wow, you took all of the proper precautions and bought top notch parts... it just doesn't make sense. I feel for you if that happened to my **** I would honestly cry... I think you could have touched 250whp with that setup (depending on the cam profile)

 

Sounds like you were doing the correct things. May have just been one of those "mechanical" failures that happens every once in a while. Sorry to hear about that, but as Flyrod suggests, there may be a lot that is salvagable, though you should tear it down again.

 

Its just my luck with Supertech valves, that was my weakest link in the setup.

Only the cams, valvesprings and retainers could be re-use, everything else including the head needs replacement.