Tuan (Michael Delaney)..... re: headers.....
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From: Atlantis
Tuan (Michael Delaney)..... re: headers.....
Your post confused me. You stated that "I chose HyTech at a time before all of this hoopla started getting intense." But you also state that "I got some advice from Tony and my engine builder after showing them pics of both the Hytech and SMSP. We decided on the SMSP by consensus and debate over which one to get."
So what happened? Which one did you get?
*scratches head*
So what happened? Which one did you get?
*scratches head*
If this is going to be a constructive thread for people thinking of shelling out over $600 for a header without turning into a back and forth circular argument (like what they have over in Jerusalem) then I think the rhetoric has to stop.
Brand loyalty is commendable but if I was a person sitting from the outside looking in without knowing any of the history behind this, it appears to be more about defending the header that you bought than factual info.
I looked at how firing order affects primaries pairing one night while I was on call and it was a slow day in the NICU and found that if you pair 180 degrees sequentially (cylinders 1with 2 and 3 with 4) or coinciding with the firing order (cylinders 1-3, 4-2) the pulse pairs are synergistic at the secondaries in terms of maintaining exhaust flow energy.
Well if you look at the SMSP ITR header: 1-2, 3-4 primaries pairing
look at the HyTech ITR header: 1-3, 4-2 primaries pairing
The SMSP and HyTech differ in terms of merge collectors and overall length.
Antireversion chambers are only used in the Hytech.
Both are stepped and both have 2.5 in. collectors.
Please look at RStor's and Tony the Tiger's pics of their headers.
I don't think SMSP would dispute the fact that the reason his headers are not $1300 is because he does not use stainless steel. It was a choice to allow him to keep the price range in an affordable realm for people who can't afford $1300 for a header.
I chose HyTech at a time before all of this hoopla started getting intense. RStor had not put up any dynos of SMSP headers yet. Tony the Tiger who lives in the same city as I do, had gotten a HyTech and had some real world expereince with it. At that time, it was a proven tangible commodity for me and the SMSP was an unproven item. Secondly, we live in a snowbelt area where salt is used to lower the freezing point of water to prevent ice on the roads. I told Dave that a mild steel 16 gauge header would get killed by salt and would rust out ealier in Canada. So my decision at that time was pretty straight foward. I got some advice from Tony and my engine builder after showing them pics of both the Hytech and SMSP. We decided on the SMSP by consensus and debate over which one to get.
Judging by Jeff Schaeffer's dyno comparison, there's not going to be a hellova a lot of difference between these 2 headers on the dyno. You can decide on whether the transient response thing is real or not (especially the road racers). You can look at that them and decide on any reason as to why you would be comfortable for choosing one over the other. The product (not the customers, friends, or the suppliers of each camp) should speak for itself. The header can do it's own talking on the dyno or at the track. The rest is pure marketing and brand loyalty.
Brand loyalty is commendable but if I was a person sitting from the outside looking in without knowing any of the history behind this, it appears to be more about defending the header that you bought than factual info.
I looked at how firing order affects primaries pairing one night while I was on call and it was a slow day in the NICU and found that if you pair 180 degrees sequentially (cylinders 1with 2 and 3 with 4) or coinciding with the firing order (cylinders 1-3, 4-2) the pulse pairs are synergistic at the secondaries in terms of maintaining exhaust flow energy.
Well if you look at the SMSP ITR header: 1-2, 3-4 primaries pairing
look at the HyTech ITR header: 1-3, 4-2 primaries pairing
The SMSP and HyTech differ in terms of merge collectors and overall length.
Antireversion chambers are only used in the Hytech.
Both are stepped and both have 2.5 in. collectors.
Please look at RStor's and Tony the Tiger's pics of their headers.
I don't think SMSP would dispute the fact that the reason his headers are not $1300 is because he does not use stainless steel. It was a choice to allow him to keep the price range in an affordable realm for people who can't afford $1300 for a header.
I chose HyTech at a time before all of this hoopla started getting intense. RStor had not put up any dynos of SMSP headers yet. Tony the Tiger who lives in the same city as I do, had gotten a HyTech and had some real world expereince with it. At that time, it was a proven tangible commodity for me and the SMSP was an unproven item. Secondly, we live in a snowbelt area where salt is used to lower the freezing point of water to prevent ice on the roads. I told Dave that a mild steel 16 gauge header would get killed by salt and would rust out ealier in Canada. So my decision at that time was pretty straight foward. I got some advice from Tony and my engine builder after showing them pics of both the Hytech and SMSP. We decided on the SMSP by consensus and debate over which one to get.
Judging by Jeff Schaeffer's dyno comparison, there's not going to be a hellova a lot of difference between these 2 headers on the dyno. You can decide on whether the transient response thing is real or not (especially the road racers). You can look at that them and decide on any reason as to why you would be comfortable for choosing one over the other. The product (not the customers, friends, or the suppliers of each camp) should speak for itself. The header can do it's own talking on the dyno or at the track. The rest is pure marketing and brand loyalty.
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From: Atlantis
Re: Tuan (darth vadeR)
Why do you care?
[Modified by darth vadeR, 11:29 AM 3/28/2002]
[Modified by darth vadeR, 11:29 AM 3/28/2002]
? Why do I care?
I'm curious.....
That pairing of cylinders idea is very interesting to me... Especially when you compare off the shelf items like Toda and Spoon, etc...
Tuan has been very resourceful and informative in his posts, but the wording of that particular one made it difficult for me to understand.
I felt long ago after researching hard (much like Tuan) and speaking with both Dave and John, that either of these headers would be a good choice for my application. I ended up with toda b/c I needed a good header and felt that the waiting list wouldn't thin for a while on either of those custom headers... I am very happy with it (as I'm sure you are - or were...).
It just so happens that fate has dealt me another fortunate hand and I recently acquired a hytech header. I'd have been happy with an SMS header as well - but I just couldn't pass this opportunity up. Dave can tell you that I've spoken with him many times (mostly through email) regarding purchasing a header, exhaust, cat, and even custom turndowns..... I hold him in the highest regard, and give him a huge
for his composure on the boards. John might have come off as an ******* on the boards, but I assure you he has been nothing but nice to any of us in person or email, phone, etc... I honestly don't see what the big deal is - in the simplest of terms it's some tubing that goes from 4 to 1 eventually. How they do it is different. Apples and oranges? Sure. But there is more than one way to get from A to B.
I go home at night from work lately and have that hytech sitting in my living room. I look at it and try to decide whether I should get it heat coated and by whom... I look at the primaries, secondaries, and much like Tuan I try to understand WHY John chose to make the header this way..... I try to understand the nuances of the design as opposed to Dave's masterpieces or the toda piece.
I was hoping he could clarify for me. That's why I care.
As I've said before, SMS and Hytech both have excellent products. I'd be happy with either of them. I don't care about the debate because each of their headers is for the most part "custom" in my eyes... I know they follow the same basic design, but different customers have different needs...
to you Dave! to you John! to you Jason! ......now Tuan?
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From: Toronto, On, Canada
Re: Tuan (Black R)
sorry, I typed that working on 3 hr of sleep. I have a HyTech . That second sentence should say HyTech ...not SMSP.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
coffee is an excellent drug. I need to get one.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
coffee is an excellent drug. I need to get one.
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From: Sears Point, CA
Re: Tuan (TDCgs'R)
I believe HyTech uses Jet Hot coatings, and yes you should get it coated.
[Modified by TDCgs'R, 5:40 PM 3/28/2002]
[Modified by TDCgs'R, 5:40 PM 3/28/2002]
This is basically a synopsis of a conversation that I had with John ~3 months ago.
Austin
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