Wow, I'm amazed at the knowledgeable people on this forum!

What are your recomendations for building a ITR engine for rally:
Criteria:
B18C5 2000 Integra Type R
Normally aspirated
94 octane Sunoco pump gas (budget might allow half with race gas)
stock bore (dont want to machine anything)
converter
210+ whp with as much torque as possible
2 full season reliable

What I was thinking was:
K593M81 Wiesco pistons 12.7-13.2
Skunk 2 stage 3 cams S2-305-05-0150
Hondata
DC 4-1 header and exhaust
and tune on the dyno

Is it possible? Any recomendations?
My engine has 90Kmiles mostly highway, auto-x, and lap days, oh yea and SnoDrift rally last month, finished first and second in class.

Evan

 

thats pertty cool that u rally the most desired car in the honda community. if staying on pump i would say to stick around 12:1 comp or so. stage 3 cams will probly be to big.. i would recomend a small over-bore when doing the rebuild, after 90k of that abuse, the rings could use a brand new surface to seat on, more so that a hone job. i would recomend something better than a dc header, there not all that great. headers made a big difference on these honda motors and a dc probly wont help make the power u want to. id say look into a smsp, hytec, rmf, or maybe the new highend, or rage if ur on more of a budget. u want a good quality header as these listed, since it will be exposed to tough rally conditions, and less prone to cracking. im not sure what u mean about conveter, hope u dont mean an automatic tranny. hope this helps, feel free to ask more.

 

As you are talking a "rally' car, you need TQ, Pro 1 or Pro 2 cams, ground clearance, the side by side SMSP header. With those lights a big alternator and Batt. 94 + octane you can go over 12-1 compression by a little. I would talk to Lee Grimes at Koni about shocks and suspension. The new Canton oil pan and "Accumulator"

 

Awesome

 

my heart dropped at the sight of you itr... sorry but, What are you doing??? why would anyone do that to the sexy pheonix yellow itr... you know that car will be a classic right???

sorry i had to get that off my chest...
anyways good luck with your rallying, have fun!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DonF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As you are talking a "rally' car, you need TQ, Pro 1 or Pro 2 cams, ground clearance, the side by side SMSP header. With those lights a big alternator and Batt. 94 + octane you can go over 12-1 compression by a little. I would talk to Lee Grimes at Koni about shocks and suspension. The new Canton oil pan and "Accumulator" </TD></TR></TABLE>

What I was thinking.^^ On a rally car you want allot of torque, the S2 Pro series would work very well for that.

 

I would recommend a higher quality header than the DC. In our Type-R's there is a lot of untapped power just waiting there in the head. Open it up so it can breathe better.

What are your clasification requirements?

I'm running a Hytech header with the anti reversion chambers...it cost a pretty penny but worth it.

Are you allowed to run an aftermarket intake system? If so, look into the Mugen or if you cannot afford that, the AEM intakes make good power also.

If your going to swap cams, you might as well swap out the valve springs, retainers and the valves. This will insure that you don't float any valves and have them contact a piston.

There are a couple guys in the ITR forum that rally their R's. Maybe they can lend some insight.

 

And lots of ground cl.

 

what you need it a WRX STi, first off to rally a car that there is very limited amounts of still around in even half decent conditon and thats front wheel drive and has very limited torque just seems sad to me. Start of with a old school impreza rs and do a turbo swap or early model evo.

 

dude if you want torque, throw an LS crank in there. Sleeving and boring out to 85mm would do wonders for torque and hp department.

Bring up the compression to like 12:1 and run skunk2 pro1s or 2s in there. I think toda cams make some good torque down low, maybe it was jun. Either way in rally car torque is what maters. I dought you will be sitting at high rpms too much either way. Just have a **** load of torque down low.

 

some of these responses are idiotic.

Hy-Tech ITR header and catless exhaust Extrude Hone ported IM, AEM v2, Hondata tuning by a good tuner and your done 210 whp. Anything inside the motor will only likely drastically reduce it's life expectancy, check the oil and water pumps too.

Since I'd imagine your going to want rally style gearing you should think about a final drive swap, kiwi on here has great deals on Srr 4.9versions which will shorten your gearing another 10%. Also if you go that route upgrade to a quaife diff at the same time.

you car looks beautifully prepared and it will be good to see more honda fwd ralleye cars than those other putrid ford models I always see.



Modified by suavacito at 9:55 PM 2/18/2006

 

Well done! I hope your rally experience is an enjoyable one. Your ITR should serve you well with excellent reliability and performance.

 

I saw a tarmac rally in France this summer and this ITR ran, it was pretty sick, good luck .

 

you will make more lots more power and torque with a better header. any of the good 4-2-1 headers out there would produce more mid-range which I'm guessing is what you're after. You might want to talk to SMSP about the setup he makes with the custom oil pan to allow for better ground clearance - most of the good headers out there (and even the DC) hang WAY too low to survive in a rally environment.

I agree with those who suggested skunk2 pro1 cams.

and as a previous poster stated, you don't want to just slap stock bore pistons in a motor with 90k miles. do a slight overbore.

 

Thanks guys!
It's motor I am unsure about. My friends that work for Honda and rally various products, keep with the stock theme, but I know there's more in there, and still remain reliable. My car is way nicer prepared then the HRA boys'.

So to recap the above:
The 12.1 pistons vs. the 12.7's that I thought (I'm going to measure the bores, if they need it probobly hone)
Skunk2 stage 2 cams, not the 3's
Canton Oil pan
SMSP or Hytec header, not the DC + 2.25" exhaust or 2.5? Which brand?
Stock ITR head + gasket + intake manifold?

So pump gas 94 or 50/50mix and were at 210WHP+?
What about the head? Valve springs and retainers?

I know Dave's ITR here on the list. His car is pretty stock like mine now. I heard he's building a Subaru to get the contigency money. I don't want the trans. and part costs of that, just to get less power to weight ratio, but 2 more wheels pulling.....

E

Photo by Jamie Sanchez

 

Wow, Vallet DUDE's thread and Tomcat's build sounds very cool!

So what is the reliability of a 230whp+ setup?
Are you guys doing these motors for street and race track use?
For Drag racing?

I would run race gas if I could make that type of power, I still don't know why you guys backed off my 12.7 weisco's and stage 3 Skunk2 cams? I figure we go through ~ 23gals. as we are now. Between stage and transit it averages 15mpg. Most of the turbo cars go through a 55drum per rally. That's a bit over my budget.....
I don't want to go as crazy as Tomcat's build, just something simple to get an idea of how the thing is going to hold together over a few rallies.

You guys do have some seriously good stuff here! Finally something more than stereo equiptment and detailing info!

E

 

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rallybird &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow, Vallet DUDE's thread and Tomcat's build sounds very cool!

So what is the reliability of a 230whp+ setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>

A 230whp motor can be very reliable, depending on the components chosen, and the quality of assembly. Tuning is also very important.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you guys doing these motors for street and race track use?
For Drag racing?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I use the ITR for trackday/time trial events.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would run race gas if I could make that type of power, I still don't know why you guys backed off my 12.7 weisco's and stage 3 Skunk2 cams?</TD></TR></TABLE>

My car will be tuned for 100 octane.

I don't know much about rally cars, but good ground clearance, and a fairly conservative build for reliability makes sense. It gets increasingly more difficult (and more expensive) to continue to make reliable power over 200whp. If you want big reliable N/A power, you can remove "cheap" from this trio, because you can only choose any two of the following three: cheap/reliable/fast.




Modified by Tomcat at 10:06 AM 2/19/2006

 

yeah there's no reason you can't run close to 13:1 if you are willing to run a 50/50 mix that will come out around 100-102.

here's the SMSP headers page:
http://sms-products.com/Headers.html

'Note: The B20VTEC header has (2) tubes that hang about 3/4" below the stock oil pan in it's standard configuration. The header can also be ordered with a custom oil pan which allows the tubing to be reconfigured in a way that the header does not hang below the oil pan. The custom oil pan is approximately $500. SMS Products does not build the custom pan so exact pricing will be quoted at the time an order is placed.'

Note: the header isn't necessarily a b20-specific design - I believe he can do his Type R header with this pan as well....

the skunk2 Pro1 cams are not a "Stage One" cam - the name is kinda deceptive. They are as big as most stage 3s but have an awesome profile that makes tons of midrange power.

for the exhaust you should just go 2.5", I would recommend the pre-bent stainless setups from [url]www.kteller.com[url]

if you want to save weight you should look at the stainless race mufflers from http://www.burnsstainless.com/ and use that with the kteller exhaust system.

you could get even lighter if you had a stainless exhaust fabricated by a good race car fab shop.

a ported head would get you gains all the way through the powerband (if it's done right) but it's fairly expensive ($1000+). as far as the valvetrain I've had good luck with the skunk2 stuff, their new pro series stuff is supposed to be even better. Rocket motorsports valvesprings and retainers are also really good.

you can get a nice compression bump from using flat-face valves...

I haven't personally tested a lot of different intake manifolds, but I have heard good thinks about the CNC-ported ITR manifolds sold by a few socal shops like Import Builders, R&D dyno, and Hookups. I also know some people who've gotten good results from extrude-honed AEBS intake manifolds....

 

oh and for an intake I would run a Comptech icebox but set it up with a K&N filter. the filters are only like $50 so you could take a couple with you to swap in during the rally when one gets dirty.....

 

Revolt_Allmotor's suggestions are excellent, if they will fit within your budget.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rallybird &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow, I'm amazed at the knowledgeable people on this forum!

What are your recomendations for building a ITR engine for rally:
Criteria:
2 full season reliable
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Frankly there isn't much on the your car that is going to last two full seasons without maintainance. Might be an unrealistic goal.

Upgrading the pistons, cams header and cat are probably all pretty safe moves, but I would go with CTR pistons and CTR cams. You will get good, reliable power and torque across entire powerband, and it won't cost much.

If you're worried about your budget for race gas, probably shouldn't spend any money at all on the motor and concentrate on entree fees, tires and repairs. Sno Drift isn't usually all that hard on the actual cars or tires. You're looking at 6-8 tires per weekend at a normal 2-day dual coefficient 3 rally.

What do you have for a suspension? You can get a lot more out of spending the bucks on a good rally suspension then upgrading the motor (especially at the start).

Frankly, if you haven't bumped yourself out of Production already, you should just stay into production. The ITR is basically the perfect Production class car. You've already got about the hottest motor, lightest chassis that comes directly from the factory. While you'll be competitive in Group 2 (which is often undersubscribed), the ITR can be outclassed by a well prepared 2000 lb true Group 2 car.

Some of the folks in this thead are not knowledgeable about rally, especially the guy that said should get a Subaru because it is torqier and is all wheel drive. There are different classes for 2WD and AWD. The Integra makes a great rally car for Production, and a fairly competitive one in Group 2 (2WD Open). It is a myth that you need a Subaru,AWD or turbo to rally. And in fact you won't be able to get your rally license in an AWD or Turbo car--have to start out in 2WD low powered car.

Best of luck. Always good to see another Integra rallyist.

-k

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would go with CTR pistons and CTR cams. You will get good, reliable power and torque across entire powerband, and it won't cost much.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is a new school of thought on running CTR pistons in an ITR motor. The dome design of the CTR piston can cause uneven combustion when used in an ITR motor. Some say it's better to use the stock ITR pistons and increase power with tuning, custom pistons, or other means.

 

what ever happened to 210 whp ? all this stuff mads crazy mad vtak but it's all well over and above what he asked for, induces cost and lessens reliability. If your having the motor rebuilt stick with ITR parts, however the addition of a dampened crank pulley like the one carried by z10 ect may add some durability. Which obviuosly is not a concern to 80-85% of the responses, of course there not the one fronting on the 1000's to get the car, ready, there and through the most brutal enviornment I can imagine for a car to race in like that. I'm very critical as I spent the better part of last year fixing other peoples **** work @ 6am on raceday in the middle of BFE freezing my *** off in 35 degree lovely monetrey bay weather.

Also if you want a really good perspective IM endless9 he ran 2 seasons almost in Honda-Challenge on the same swap he got from password JDM with only bolt ons and I believe even the 25 hour endurance race, never even cracked the valvecover and drove the thing hundreds of miles to some events and back

https://honda-tech.com/zero...18835

IMO if your going to finish your motor as nicely as your car and add cams, contact pipercams. There not all stunner like taiwan sweatshop 2 but they have produced some of the most effective cams I've seen and if you look into the higher end Honda rally cars oversees and even beyond that into BTCC you'll find there work, there not cheap but then neither is your labor to put them in so IMO do it right the first time. Crower also has some new billets that look promising.

http://www.pipercams.co.uk/New....html




Modified by suavacito at 5:45 PM 2/19/2006

 

you don't 'need' that much power. stock b18c5&lt;b20b for rally