I'm going to do a lot of suspension work this spring and I am still trying to decide what GC rates to go with. I searched and looked through most of the posts but I want to know what will work best with my proposed setup. Here is what I'm getting:

GC + koni yellows all around.
ITR rear sway bar w/ ES bushings.
complete ES bushings kit.
Hawk pads + SS lines.

the car is a '98 GSR and it is my dd plus I am going to be auto-xing it consistantly during the summer, and maybe a track day once a year. I am really shooting for a neutrally handling car. I want to mostly eliminate understeer, but i don't want to worry bout it spinning out during "spirited" driving on the street. From what I've read I am currently thinking of geting something around 400/400. A lot of people seem to be going 100-150 higher in the rear, but I am thinking that with the sway bar I will be able to go with a lower rate in the rear. I realize the ride quality is personal preference but let me know what you guys think about how it will handle.

 

If you're looking for neutral handling, you may want to upgrade to an ITR front sway bar also. With just the rear it will have more of a tendency to want to oversteer because of the huge difference in sizes between the front and rear sways. But I have no idea how this would play out with different spring ratings and such and just the rear sway. I don't know that much about suspension, at least not yet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're looking for neutral handling, you may want to upgrade to an ITR front sway bar also. With just the rear it will have more of a tendency to want to oversteer because of the huge difference in sizes between the front and rear sways. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Just FYI the fron sway bar is the same size on both the ITR and GSR. Only on the 95-96 LS did they have a smaller front sway bar.

To be honest I would ask this question in the road racing forum as they have a real good idea of suspension set-ups with different swaybars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bnuk013 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A lot of people seem to be going 100-150 higher in the rear, but I am thinking that with the sway bar I will be able to go with a lower rate in the rear. I realize the ride quality is personal preference but let me know what you guys think about how it will handle.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would recommend 450/550. It should handle nicely with your Koni Yellows and ITR rear swaybar. The shocks will be able to handle the spring rate just fine and ride quality will still be tolerable for street use.

Don't forget about the alignment, that makes a huge difference also. I would go with 1/4" toe out in the front and zero toe in the rear for a daily driven autocross car.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're looking for neutral handling, you may want to upgrade to an ITR front sway bar also. With just the rear it will have more of a tendency to want to oversteer because of the huge difference in sizes between the front and rear sways. But I have no idea how this would play out with different spring ratings and such and just the rear sway. I don't know that much about suspension, at least not yet.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why bother even replying when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about? It would help everyone a lot more if you don't say anything when you don't understand the subject at hand.

 

The spring rates you listed sound like a pretty good setup. I have a 22mm rear sway bar, with 671 LB rear springs and 559 LB front springs. I can't say that the *** end doesn't step-out under "spirited street driving", but if you plan to Auto-X all summer, and participate at occasional HPDE's then a setup with a little more rear spring might suit you well. Besides, by the end of summer, you will be very good at controlling the rear end if does step-out. Just take it easy in the rain, or snow. For the winter, disconnect the rear bar... problem solved.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Racermech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Just FYI the fron sway bar is the same size on both the ITR and GSR. Only on the 95-96 LS did they have a smaller front sway bar.

To be honest I would ask this question in the road racing forum as they have a real good idea of suspension set-ups with different swaybars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Didn't realize ITR and GSR are the same, I knew the LS was different, and its the 94 - 99 ls that has 22.1mm.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why bother even replying when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about? It would help everyone a lot more if you don't say anything when you don't understand the subject at hand.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well then, rather than being a dick about it, why don't you tell me how I was wrong, besides that I didn't realize the GSR and ITR were the same and not the LS and GSR. An LS has a stock rear sway of 12.9 and a front of 21.1. Upgrading to a 22mm rear sway and keeping the front stock will make a huge difference as I stated, hence why I had also said about getting the front ITR. All I can see that I made a mistake in was getting my applications mixed up. If there is more to it then why don't you please explain because that is how people learn rather than just telling them they are wrong and leaving it at that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Upgrading to a 22mm rear sway and keeping the front stock will make a huge difference as I stated, hence why I had also said about getting the front ITR.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Installing a bigger front swaybar after installed a big rear swaybar is cancelling out the gains of the rear swaybar.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If there is more to it then why don't you please explain because that is how people learn rather than just telling them they are wrong and leaving it at that. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not being a "dick".

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so why even comment? If you really wanted to learn something you should ask questions, not post bad information. What if someone actually believes you know what you're talking about and follows your bad advice? Please do not post if you do not know what you're talking about.

So tell me, who is more harmful to the thread, you or I? I posted helpful information and you posted "information" that is horribly false. You even admit to having no experience with the topic that you're giving advice on.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're looking for neutral handling, you may want to upgrade to an ITR front sway bar also.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A bigger front swaybar promotes understeer (generally). Do not install a bigger front sway bar if you're trying to make your car more neutral.

The cars come from the factory with a tendency to understeer at the limit. If we want to make the car more neutral, we have to make it oversteer more.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With just the rear it will have more of a tendency to want to oversteer because of the huge difference in sizes between the front and rear sways.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You say this as if it's a bad thing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But I have no idea how this would play out with different spring ratings and such and just the rear sway. I don't know that much about suspension, at least not yet.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then don't post next time.

Get it now?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Installing a bigger front swaybar after installed a big rear swaybar is cancelling out the gains of the rear swaybar.



You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so why even comment? If you really wanted to learn something you should ask questions, not post bad information. What if someone actually believes you know what you're talking about and follows your bad advice? Please do not post if you do not know what you're talking about.

A bigger front swaybar promotes understeer (generally). Do not install a bigger front sway bar if you're trying to make your car more neutral.

The cars come from the factory with a tendency to understeer at the limit. If we want to make the car more neutral, we have to make it oversteer more.

You say this as if it's a bad thing.

Then don't post next time.

Get it now?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Psst now was that so hard Anyway a couple of questions and comments to help clear up things I have read and to improve my intended setup then.


As I said on an LS the rear sway is a measly 12.9 mm with the front at 22.1. So as you already said, yes the cars will tend to understeer at the limit, but the addition of a 22m bar onto an LS is a huge increase, causing probably more oversteer than wanted, correct? Upon tons of searching on this board when I was laying out the plans for my suspension, many people said the rear end would kick out a lot easier with this big of a bar now, possibly to easy (remember on an ls).

So again as you stated upgrading my front bar will tend to neutralize the oversteer that I've created. But then wouldn't that be a good thing to help offset that huge increase in oversteer? Wouldn't it now still have the tendency for oversteer still because the upgrade in the front isn't nearly as great? Or would it go back to understeering because the increase in the front and rear is proportional (I didn't do the math so I do not know if its proportional or not).

Now if it did cause my car to understeer because of the upgraded sway I'd either have to put the old sway back on or adjust my spring rates to fix it, correct? But then I guess it becomes a preference of how you want to create the neutral handling, through the use of bigger bars or through the use of different spring rates.

So basically the OP would upgrade the rear sway then choose some spring ratings, and he would now be able to go softer in the rear because of the upgraded sway. After all of this disscussion then, we really can't tell him what spring rates to go with because what we tell him, he may not like. Basically people will only be able to tell him a general range and since he's getting ground control, don't they allow you to send them back and choose different ratings? Then he'd be able to experiment with what's best for him.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Psst now was that so hard Anyway a couple of questions and comments to help clear up things I have read and to improve my intended setup then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

First off, do you autocross and/or do track days? If you want to improve your vehicle's performance there is nothing better than improving the driver.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As I said on an LS the rear sway is a measly 12.9 mm with the front at 22.1. So as you already said, yes the cars will tend to understeer at the limit, but the addition of a 22m bar onto an LS is a huge increase, causing probably more oversteer than wanted, correct? Upon tons of searching on this board when I was laying out the plans for my suspension, many people said the rear end would kick out a lot easier with this big of a bar now, possibly to easy (remember on an ls). </TD></TR></TABLE>

There's no such thing as too much oversteer on a FWD car, so long as you're a competent driver.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So again as you stated upgrading my front bar will tend to neutralize the oversteer that I've created. But then wouldn't that be a good thing to help offset that huge increase in oversteer? Wouldn't it now still have the tendency for oversteer still because the upgrade in the front isn't nearly as great? Or would it go back to understeering because the increase in the front and rear is proportional (I didn't do the math so I do not know if its proportional or not).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't do anything to add understeer to your car.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But then I guess it becomes a preference of how you want to create the neutral handling, through the use of bigger bars or through the use of different spring rates.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do both. Big rear swaybar and high rear spring rates.

Warning: if you do not have a decent amount of experience on the track you will probably become a victim of lift throttle oversteer when following my advice.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So basically the OP would upgrade the rear sway then choose some spring ratings, and he would now be able to go softer in the rear because of the upgraded sway. After all of this disscussion then, we really can't tell him what spring rates to go with because what we tell him, he may not like. Basically people will only be able to tell him a general range and since he's getting ground control, don't they allow you to send them back and choose different ratings? Then he'd be able to experiment with what's best for him.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you want to test different setups, you have to buy more than one set of springs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

First off, do you autocross and/or do track days? If you want to improve your vehicle's performance there is nothing better than improving the driver.

There's no such thing as too much oversteer on a FWD car, so long as you're a competent driver.

Don't do anything to add understeer to your car.

Do both. Big rear swaybar and high rear spring rates.

Warning: if you do not have a decent amount of experience on the track you will probably become a victim of lift throttle oversteer when following my advice.

If you want to test different setups, you have to buy more than one set of springs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Alright thanks for all the info. And yes I know the best thing to do is get more and more seat time. I have yet to autox, plan on it this summer. I only have experience on the drag strip, so I have just been going on what others have said. I also eventually plan on going to a driving school too, my uncle has offered to go with me and cover some of the expenses. When I do go, I have no idea when that will be. I do know some of the basics and stuff though, like lift throttle oversteer which you mentioned and some other things.

Again thanks for the info.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BLacK FirE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do know some of the basics and stuff though, like lift throttle oversteer which you mentioned and some other things.</TD></TR></TABLE>

When you do finally attend autocross or a driving school, forget everything you thought you knew.

It'll make the learning process much easier. Far too many people are stuck with bad habits that they have a hard time overcoming.

 

Maybe I should rephrase then, I know the basic concepts, I don't actually practice them lol. On my occasional spirted drive I never attempt to go all out because I do not know the limits of my car or my own skill and I would rather learn and make my mistakes in a safe environment where I don't have to worry about totalling my car or my life.

 

Yea I learned that the hard way, I came in hot to a corner I thought i knew and lifted in the apex, got sideways at 70 mph, and hit a reflecter pole on the fender, im really lucky thats all that happend.

point is: make sure you know how to control the car before you add something that will increase oversteer. I only have coilovers on my car, stock sways and it still spun.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Don't forget about the alignment, that makes a huge difference also. I would go with 1/4" toe out in the front and zero toe in the rear for a daily driven autocross car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
how much of an affect on my tire wear is that going to have?
I forgot to mention that I have a second se of wheel with the old 15x7 azenis. I plan on droping it like 2" or so for auto-X but Im not going to worry about camber plates or anyhting since I will try to keep it near stock heights most of the time, especially in the winter.


I just don't like the thought of having higher rates in the rear of car that much lighter in the back. If it is better to have higher rates in the back, then how come almost every company that makes coilovers sells them with significantly higher rates in the front than the rear (even "racing spec" coilovers) Is that just a liability issue or what?

I do live near P-burgh so there are tons of bumps and pot holes, although Im not really worried about the comfort level in the back seat since no ever rides back there.


Modified by bnuk013 at 4:26 PM 2/8/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bnuk013 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much of an affect on my tire wear is that going to have?
I forgot to mention that I have a second se of wheel with the old 15x7 azenis. I plan on droping it like 2" or so for auto-X but Im not going to worry about camber plates or anyhting since I will try to keep it near stock heights most of the time, especially in the winter.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Run zero toe front and rear if you want to preserve the tyres. Running toe out in the front will eat up the tyres slightly faster.

I highly recommend getting camber kits for the front and rear if you are going to be driving on the track. Being able to adjust your camber is a very nice thing to have when tuning your suspension.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bnuk013 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just don't like the thought of having higher rates in the rear of car that much lighter in the back. If it is better to have higher rates in the back, then how come almost every company that makes coilovers sells them with significantly higher rates in the front than the rear (even "racing spec" coilovers) Is that just a liability issue or what?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would guess that companies sell coilovers that are prone to understeer to protect them from liability. 99.99% of the people who will be buying them won't be driving on the track at all and a rear biased setup will be unsafe for these unskilled drivers.

That said, there are those that use a front biased setup, but that's a whole different issue.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bnuk013 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I do live near P-burgh so there are tons of bumps and pot holes, although Im not really worried about the comfort level in the back seat since no ever rides back there.</TD></TR></TABLE>

450/550 should be very tolerable on the street.

 

ok after looking through this thread https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=190396 and some other stuff, I've decided to go with 450f/450r. It seems that with these springs and the larger rear sway bar my car will be slightly rear biased, but not too much. I know the koni yellows will take up to 600lb or whatever, but I want to retain some adjustability and stay away from any bounciness. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that if your springs are approaching the limit of the dampers, you are in the territory of diminishing returns.