well i was going to get the aspec racing sub-frame kit, but i just can't being myself to pay for the plate when it only cost 30 or so on online metals...

so i started making my own.. and could use some help with idears. I was going to use the same 6061 as them, but how thick is the aspec racing one. For some reason they won't tell me.. lol..

I'm gonna say half an inch, i was going to use a vertical bandsaw, very high speed, plenty of lube.. should cut fine with the right blade.

Here's a rough diagram



so you guys think .5 is thick enough ?


Modified by GarageAlchemist at 10:44 AM 1/26/2006

 

You could probably eMachine shop it cheaper than what they charge

 

yea ?... i mean its only a 20-30 plate, i can cut it for free, drill the holes for free

no reason it should cost over 50 all togther

 

the aspect peace is alot more then just a flat peace of metal, im almost positive if comes other parts, or the other parts are attached to it.

 

If someone could post a diagram of all of the measurements I could design a brace that would blow the asr piece out of the water.
Well it wouldn't be made out of a flat piece of metal at least. It wold not be as cheap or easy to fabricate as the ASR piece either.


I think the ASR piece includes aluminum bushings that go in between the brace and the sub frame where the lca bolts go through it.

 

If you can make one for a reasonable price I will definately buy one!

 

yea it comes with hardware and bushings, but i'm not paying 120$ for some bolts, i can get some grade 8/10 and bushings at a machine shop in town for 10 bucks.. shrug, the aspec is nice, but its still just metal.. i'll post pics when im done..

if it goes as easy as i think i wouldn't selling some for ek for 50-75 bucks depending on final cost, maybe make 20 bucks off them just so i don't do it for free..

 

If it comes out nice let me know

 

someone should just buy the aspec size it all up then resell it. Im taking measurements for traction bars from a friends so i can make my own for less then a hundred bucks.

Edit: now that i think about it, i would do this, but not make them and sell them. Its fine to copy something like that for your own car, but its kinda beat to try to undercut aspec by copying. SO i am fine with sharing demensions, but thats all.

 

The fact that your confortable with using "grade 8" bolts instead of factory is a little disconcerting. I wouldn't use any grade 10 or 8 or whatever bolts unless it's an aerospace fastener or factory.

Chances are you are going to miss out on some of the critical engineering benefits of the A-spec piece. I'm not saying Aspec is better then yours or your sis better or that the comptech is best. There is a reason people charge what they do, if you don't have the engineering and design capacity to do it right then don't do it, espeically in a critical area of the subframe

 

i am also interested in seeing some diagrams and specs! thickness, length, location of holes... etc.

 

Good call Casey, especially on the bolt issue. I work at a Fastener manufacturer and you wouldn't believe the difference that the subtlest difference in a bolt makes to the strength. Our company started manufacturing a bolt for an automaker, and realised during testing that the bolt was no where near strong enough for the application. The whole piece had to be redesigned and re tooled in order to make a good part. To you guys that are fabbing your own stuff, please make sure that you're getting the right information. Engineers go to school for a long time for good reason. If you have the radius wrong under the head of a bolt, you could actually be making the bolt into a projectile. Please don't thinkthat any old bolt you can grab at Home Depot, or Lowe's is good enough. Those are general purpose fasteners, notsomething that is subjected to odd ball loads, and multiple cycles.

Clayton

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Clayton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good call Casey, especially on the bolt issue. I work at a Fastener manufacturer and you wouldn't believe the difference that the subtlest difference in a bolt makes to the strength. Our company started manufacturing a bolt for an automaker, and realised during testing that the bolt was no where near strong enough for the application. The whole piece had to be redesigned and re tooled in order to make a good part. To you guys that are fabbing your own stuff, please make sure that you're getting the right information. Engineers go to school for a long time for good reason. If you have the radius wrong under the head of a bolt, you could actually be making the bolt into a projectile. Please don't thinkthat any old bolt you can grab at Home Depot, or Lowe's is good enough. Those are general purpose fasteners, notsomething that is subjected to odd ball loads, and multiple cycles.

Clayton</TD></TR></TABLE>

yay! someone who thinks like me!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Casey@Burns &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The fact that your confortable with using "grade 8" bolts instead of factory is a little disconcerting. I wouldn't use any grade 10 or 8 or whatever bolts unless it's an aerospace fastener or factory.

Chances are you are going to miss out on some of the critical engineering benefits of the A-spec piece. I'm not saying Aspec is better then yours or your sis better or that the comptech is best. There is a reason people charge what they do, if you don't have the engineering and design capacity to do it right then don't do it, espeically in a critical area of the subframe</TD></TR></TABLE>

well lets not forget this is still a plate of 6061 t6.. a plate of 6061 t6 is a plate of 6061 t6.. and as for the bolts..

iso standard grade 10 bolt is much stronger than the Honda oem bolt which if I'm not mistaken is low or medium carbon steel, and cold worked. A grade 10 that is medium carbon alloy steel, is quenched and tempered as well as 2x as strong.

garage alchemist.


Modified by GarageAlchemist at 5:12 PM 1/26/2006

 

You do realize there is an angle to the LCA mounting points? I don't have any hosted picts of my project anymore but i designed one for a G2 to mount a ITR sway bar. It was my culminating engineering project. A local prototyping place wanted $800 dollars to have it made. So think twice about this project and Charleston is a good guy and I would support his company.

 

I find it funny that people can come up with an idea research and develop it and then you think that you can make it for less. Why not support the companies that are making these products instead of trying to put them out of business if you cant afford things then get a better job or get a job in general. And the funny thing is you cant make this item for a profitable amount or make it in general so dont try to offer something that is not possible.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tucker3113 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I find it funny that people can come up with an idea research and develop it and then you think that you can make it for less. Why not support the companies that are making these products instead of trying to put them out of business if you cant afford things then get a better job or get a job in general. And the funny thing is you cant make this item for a profitable amount or make it in general so dont try to offer something that is not possible.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GarageAlchemist &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i was going to use a vertical bandsaw, very high speed, plenty of lube.. should cut fine with the right blade.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just a health and safety concern, sounds like you are planning on using a wood cutting bandsaw, look up the cutting speed for aluminum, it's much slower than for woods. I'm just concerned about an HT member snapping a blade and loosing a finger.

and I'm with casey, clatyon, and ernie on the fastener issue, OEM or aerospace. Most people cheap out here (on ht), home depot is nowhere to be buying parts for a car.

Also I don't think i've ever seen a grade ten bolt. I've seen class ten bolts, as they are the metric standard bolts used for most critical fasteners (10 stamped right on the head) and a class 10 bolt (say 10.9) is about equivalent to an SAE grade eight bolt.
Alot of the OEM standard bolts are more sophisticated than you might think. Yay for OEM's. Use aerospace fasteners when in doubt.

The real question: why make this part at all? what proven benefit does it have?

 

i dunno to many machine shops that use wood blades for cutting metal... and a grade 10+ bolt is aerospace, sae/osi standard the bolt ratings defined are the same, in the osi model release they say "grade 10" and the strength

and yea i'm running a ctr rear sway bar, and have seen subframes torn, 40 bucks for some peace of mind is well worth it.

 

The only purpose of the ASR kit is to be able to mount a bigger sway bar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GarageAlchemist &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well lets not forget this is still a plate of 6061 t6.. a plate of 6061 t6 is a plate of 6061 t6.. and as for the bolts..

iso standard grade 10 bolt is much stronger than the Honda oem bolt which if I'm not mistaken is low or medium carbon steel, and cold worked. A grade 10 that is medium carbon alloy steel, is quenched and tempered as well as 2x as strong.

garage alchemist.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't discount your logic on the bolded section here, but I can tell you that there are some things that you're missing. To start with, while your correct in that certain parameter's may be stronger with a gr 8 bolt than a stock Honda fastener, there are still things to consider about the fasteners that you're after. I'm not sure that you're going to get a fastener that be exactly the right size in all dimensions. There are many radii on a bolt that can contribute to it's strength or weakness, dependent on the load that is applied to it. I'll be brutally honest with you man. I love the idea that you want to make something yourself, rather than paying a large sum of money for it. But please be sure to do your homework before you go putting this on your car. Before I worked at my current job, I had absolutely no idea just how critical bolts really were. Like most people I just assumed that as long as it was the right length, and it was stronger, then it should be good to go. I guess now I just know different, and I'd like to help people make the correct fastener decisions. Best of luck with your project man.

Clayton

 

I'm just wondering, where can someone find this information that wants to know more about picking the right bolt for the job? Not specifically this job, just so the rest of us can see all the different things that need to be thought of.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GarageAlchemist &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dunno to many machine shops that use wood blades for cutting metal... and a grade 10+ bolt is aerospace, sae/osi standard the bolt ratings defined are the same, in the osi model release they say "grade 10" and the strength

and yea i'm running a ctr rear sway bar, and have seen subframes torn, 40 bucks for some peace of mind is well worth it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you live in the US? Maybe that's why I'm confused.... SAE grades stop at 8. Metric classes stop (pretty much) at 12. NAS is one standard, AN is another, Militarty standards are another. I cannot find any mention of grade 10 or 10+ bolts in any of my engineering texts. AN standard bolts are a few percent stronger than grade 8 bolts, but what makes them appealing is thier quality control. NAS bolts are stronger still, but for increased strength there is a metalurgical tradeoff (embritlement and narrowing of the yield/uts gap.)

A bolt labeled AN10 is not a class 10 bolt or a grade 10 bolt. the AN represents a strength standard, defined by the airforce/navy (or army navy depending on how old the person you're asking is) and the 10 is a reflection of the shank size (10/16 or 5/8 in this case) There are AN23 bolts, they aren't any stronger they're just bigger. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming from?

The reason I asked about the wood bandsaw was that you said you were going to cut it at a high speed with plenty of lube. cutting speed for aluminun isn't all that fast. I just wanted to help.

Also, what's this mention of osi standards. ISO started OSI (open standards intercommunication or something like that) for computer communications. I think that happened when I was a kid. I need to get more sleep....

post some pics of subframe failures, there's some crazy smart people on this board that could come up with some good, inexpensive, simple, and safe solutions I'm sure.

 

haha yea, i'm a networking geek, should have caught the osi/iso mix up... must have been tired..

so.. can anyone suggest the exact right bolt, it's metric, honda/helm just list "10X80" gonan guess that's the pitch and thread, so.. can anyone actually help me find the right bolts to use...

ps.. I've added 1/2" so i need a longer bolt

i contacted COng825810 on aim, from apec racing but haven't gotten anything back.. I'll just try to get the bolts from them.

 

i started stripping the rear end, i got some 95 rear teg trailing arms on the way monday and some ss lines.

After i took this pic i shaved some of the excess tar, and rust proofed/painted the entire rear end and wheel wells, also took some finner measurements of the sub-frame dimensions, which I'll be more than happy to provide if anyone wants to see them.



and polypill has a point, we should get some bolt information on the site.. anyone ?