I've been looking at the buddy club n+ coilovers and the spring rates seem weird...
12k front and 6k rear. I dont understand this gap in the rates from front to rear... seems it would cause a lot of understeer. The damper is 15 way adjustable w/ +4kg/mm stiffest setting and -4kg/mm softest setting. I plan on calling buddy club to see if they can provide a 10k or 8k set of springs for me so i can change the rates in the front or rear to make it a bit more neutral.... however before i do this i was wondering if maybe there is a reason for the rates to be like this? and if i leave them the way they are and i put the rear on the stiffest damping setting will it balance the front and rear and make it a bit more neutral or am i understanding this all wrong? thanks for the help in advance.

 

someone has to have some kind of imput.....

 

Kendall's got all sorts of interesting input on this topic actually!

 

most fwd cars are front heavy, this is pretty neutral

 

Everything is very clear now thanks to the guys at PIC Performance and i'm no longer confused on this setup... thanks again!!!

PIC

 

The more you know !
*cue cheesey afterschool commercial*

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ruthless EF8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Everything is very clear now thanks to the guys at PIC Performance and i'm no longer confused on this setup... thanks again!!!

PIC </TD></TR></TABLE>

wy dont you post up the answer to let others who may be searching for this know too

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sly_106 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wy dont you post up the answer to let others who may be searching for this know too </TD></TR></TABLE>

exactly... i was considering the exact same thing... ive been trying to find someone who can tell me if they offer custom rates and if they revalve the shock with different rates and yadda yadda... no one has really given me any useful information on them

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96Spec Ek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">most fwd cars are front heavy, this is pretty neutral</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, it's really not unless you're running a huge rear bar. More weight + more spring = understeer.

 

Sorry, probably shouldve done that... here's the awnser i recieved from PIC...

Why do people run 12k front and 6k rear spring rate setups?

The idea is to keep the rear end very loose, so that its easy to rotate through the turns. Its based on the principle of load transfer, in that much softer rear springs (when compared to the fronts), combined with no rear swaybar, makes the rear end transfer load very quickly from the inside to the outside rear tire during a turn. Without stiff springs or a swaybar to regulate the load transfer, and combined with the much stiffer front springs (meaning the rear end is taking the majority of roll couple) you'll get all the load moved to the outside rear tire almost instantly, overcoming the tire's traction capabilities, which will kick out the tail in a turn, aka oversteer.

"Load Transfer": the term "weight transfer" is a misnomer, as very little amount of actual weight is actually transfered during body motion. At most, its the gas sloshing around in the gas tank, and the driver leaning side to side. Load transfer is the load (force applied to the tires) moving from one side of the car to another, either laterally (side to side), longitudinally (braking and launching), and diagonally (a combination of both, seen during cornering). If you want to know more about load transfer, lemme know.

Roll Couple: The relationship of roll resistance between the 2 front and 2 rear tires. Roll resistance is just as it sounds: how resistant one end is to roll. High roll resistance means the car will require lots of load to roll the body side to side; low means the opposite. If the roll resistance on one end is higher than the other, the end with higher roll resistance will lose traction first. BUT, in the example posed in your question (bear with me during the following explanation: I learned this recently myself, might be slightly off) the difference is so large that the fronts will take almost none of the load, and load is instantly transfered rearwards, and thend to the outside wheel, making the rear end slide out.

Sidenote: Usually, if one end of the car is giving up traction before the other, you get understeer (front end gives before the rear) or oversteer (rear end gives before the fronts). To counter-act this, you can deteriorate the grip on the end with MORE traction, meaning increasing the roll resistance. eg. Most FWD Hondas will push (understeer) pretty badly due to being fwd and having a 60/40 front/rear weight bias. To counter-act this, most driver's opt for the stiffer rear/softer front setup (nothing extreme like 6k/12k, more like 10k/12k) and/or go with a stiff rear swaybar. They are, in essence, increasing the roll resistance of the rear end, and making the rear tires reach their traction limits (lose grip) before the fronts, resulting in either neutral or oversteer, depending on how extreme they go.

So high roll resistance = reduced lateral load transfer = less body roll = losing traction earlier. So stiffer always = better.
Low roll resistance = increased lateral load transfer = more body roll = lose traction later. Too soft isn't great, but soft isn't always bad.

so this 12k front 6k rear will work good if i dont have a rear swaybar?

From what Kendall told me, it takes a totally different driving technique to what most people are used to. But if you get it down and get it down well, you will be quicker around the track. I'm *preeeetty* sure he mentioned not running a rear sway, and he subscribes to that philosophy, but don't quote me on that. In theory, yes it the setup would work better without a rear swaybar though.

and i have it confused when i thought i would have understeer.... when infact i will have a bit of oversteer?

Yes the concept is a little counter-intuitive, and I bet its pretty hard to figure out on the track if you are used to the more traditional driving techniques to combat understeer. But with that 12k/6k setup, its the rears that will give out first, leading to oversteer.

Thanks again PIC

 

lol I didn't catch this in our PM convo, but:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So stiffer always = better.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Should read:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So stiffer does not always = better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

i can't say that i remotely agree with that assessment.

12kg/6kg means tons of nose heavy push and it would take one hell of a trailbraker to get the car to rotate at all. going so soft in the rear AND removing a rear sway puts rear end grip levels through the roof. without some sort of additional vector in the traction circle, i don't see how the rears could break loose first.

basically this theory of suspension tuning conflicts with everything i've ever learned, and moreover, with every real setup i've ever seen on FF race cars. i'm not saying that it's not necessarily fast, but i need more answers.

If looser = faster (which it tends to be to a point in our cars), and noseheavy FF understeer means you have to be even more hamhanded on the brake, steering, and throttle inputs, i can't see how 12kg/6kg w/ no rear sway could be faster in any way.

12kg/6kg is a comfort choice on the part of BC so that people don't complain about BC coilovers spilling their coffee and sodas all over their JDM interiors.

 

I felt/thought the same way. Guess it works differently in practice?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PIC Performance &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I felt/thought the same way. Guess it works differently in practice?</TD></TR></TABLE>

hmm, maybe.

i'd never setup my car like that though

 

Well Kendall was very convincing about it lol. Its like he was selling crack.. but not?
As a sidenote, just for ***** and giggles last night after I got done talking to Ruthless, I went ahead and tried to set up a few of my cars in Forza MS this way (or as close as I could approximate), and I realized 2 things:
1. Forza MS is definitely not a driving simulator
2. I suck at driving.

 

i guess ill throw in my 2 cents.

me and Kendall had a small run in about this befor i decided to not elaborate on it at that point but here it goes.


I work on several race cars (FF honda race cars). One of the car recently made a switch to a new suspension. hte manufacture suggested we run some pretty wacky weight in our opinion. (something along the lines of the 12k 6k setup). No matter what we did we couldn't get the car to turn like it had befor. This is with some VERY VERY capible drivers in the car, they new they had to change there driving style, and new what they had to change it to, and they did. Still lap times were 1 to 2 seconds off compared to the old laps times.

The drivers were complaining of a "numb feeling car, i couldn't feel the car at all durning the turn, everything took much longer to happen then it should". So at that point we called up manufacture and they a bunch of stuff. But in the end it wasn't faster, nor was it confidence inspiring to the drivers.

We switched over to a rear bias setup, after alittle switching of spring rates the car was able to turn 1 second faster lap times then it did with the old suspension, which is 2 to 3 seconds faster then the "jdm" setup.

This fact was also backed up when we check with 2 other teams who made the switch over to this new suspension, it was just plain slower then the rear biased set up. When they changed the springs and went to rear biased they too bested there fastest lap times

Also there is a few guys who work closely with suspension company that does the "jdm" setup for suspensions. They have worked for a long time to try and get it as fast as the rear biased setup and can't. So they too have a rear biased shock setup.

I brought this subject up with some one in the "know" about the japanese honda's and what they run, (from companies like spoon, mugen, ect). He laughed when i asked if they ran higher springs up front, then replied, "Just becuase they sell the product as the same as the race team uses DOES NOT mean thats is what they use. They are extremly tight liped about it though."

So im with bad monkey on this one, i spent 3 or 4 full days at the track trying to get that setup to go, and it just wouldn't go. Neither could the other teams, and the statement above leads me to think that most serious japanese TC teams don't run it either. (im talking about Group ( place letter here) competition sactioned by the FIA)

 

who is kendall?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who is kendall?</TD></TR></TABLE>

...and who is going to set him straight.

you can get a front-biased setup working well, but not for the reasons that were listed, from what I know.

 

What was it about their techniques that they were adjusting?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who is kendall?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here is Kendall explaining on how soft springs make the chassis flex more:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1439827

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PIC Performance &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What was it about their techniques that they were adjusting? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not 100% sure, as i was just wrenching on the cars. But one of the other cars that i mentioned had some one driving it who was very used to the JDM setup, and he still wasn't faster.

Not only is it not faster, the suspension takes to long to everything is the complaint i kept getting.

The guys that were driving these cars, were all capable drivers, some more then other yes, but still the results were conclusive. JDM setup is SLOWER then rear bias setup.


Every FWD WCTC car i can think of runs rear bias. From the looks of it so do the BTCC. And if truth be told i bet the real Japanese cars don't run the "jdm" setup either.

edit- spelling

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kendall &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Depending upon the exact spring rate, the amount of weight transfer and flex will vary allowing the car to oversteer in various amounts at various speeds
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think im reading this wrong, or at least the first time. Im not sure, is he saying that by different spring rates you can change the amount of weight transfer?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PIC Performance &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol I didn't catch this in our PM convo, but:

Should read:
</TD></TR></TABLE>

heh, me either... nice catch

 

are you sure its 12K/6K for the N+, I have Racing-spec on order and i was told 10K/6K for those from Buddy Club Us (buddyclub.us) however, I got 10K/8K for mine. 12K seems too stiff for their N+ line, but the 6K rear is accurate. I have also been told you can switch the springs to +/- 2K on stock valving, but after that will require a re-valve.

I'm under the same thinking, how can 12K/6K be good since its such a gap, I went with 10K/8K which is 565/450, I was going to go with Koni/GC at 380/430 so it still seems front biased to me, but a 22mm rear sway will even that out, i hope.

 

Yes 12k front 6k rear is 100% accurate straight from the guys at Buddy Club U.S.

Read the convo between the guy from PIC and myself, that pretty much explains how the setup, in theory, in supposed to work. Seems to me that it works better in some driving conditions and a rear bias works better in others.

Also read the thread linked in this thread, that will explain the setup as well.

My Buddy Club N+ are on order.... I'll be sure to let you know how they work out for me... pretty excited to try it out.