I've run on stickies on a few events this season and I am not running on streets anymore if I can help it. With the 17 year old shocks on the CRX I am afraid to put stickies on it without getting better shocks. But, I am a bit tight on the racing budget and am trying to figure out if spending a couple of hundred less and getting KYB adjustables over Koni yellows would be ok or even just getting brand new OEM shocks. (Not sure about used shocks, don't have the expertise to know if I am getting ripped off.)

If anyone has some data they can pass on it would be really appreciated.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If anyone has some data they can pass on it would be really appreciated. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sticky'd to the top of the suspension forum:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1104049

 

I saw that, I was looking for more of a lap time thing. Kinda like GRM did with their tire test where they posted times for individual tires.

Thanks anyway, I'll try and decipher most of that. Shoulda payed attention during physics.

 

I had AGX's on my 96 EX for years and just switched to the yellows recently. Trust me, the yellows are FAR superior. Well worth the extra cash.

 

my AGXs were blown after about 6 months and they didn`t go thru any event-abuse...and my car wasn`t even that low. as far as konis, all u hear is goos stuff about them

 

have you considered koni reds? they are about half the price of yellows and are also adjustable, if you are running a lot bigger spring rates they probably arent good, but with a set of eibachs or gc's with stock spring rates they should work out fine

 

Koni's are great, if you are not interested in spending the extra $$, AGX's are an ok alternative. Keep in mind everyone has different experience.
I have had 2 sets of AGX, on an EG and now an EM1, I have had no issues at all, with lots of track time and auto-x plus daily driving. But I run low spring rates and I am not slammed.

 

It'll be a GS car, so I can't do anything to spring rates and ride height legally.

 

find some blown old yellow's for your car, send them to lee and have them valved with the SPSS3 valving. It will be a big advanatage, cause you will be able to do alot with the shocks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">find some blown old yellow's for your car, send them to lee and have them valved with the SPSS3 valving. It will be a big advanatage, cause you will be able to do alot with the shocks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much would that run?

I already have a growing list of crap that needs done before I can even delve into go fast parts.

I shoulda picked up crack... it would have been cheaper.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

How much would that run?

I already have a growing list of crap that needs done before I can even delve into go fast parts.

I shoulda picked up crack... it would have been cheaper. </TD></TR></TABLE>


what car are you running again? the 88 SI ? hmmm i remeber todd reid (user name mabye misspelled) had some show room stock koni's for this car i think.

if not find the cheapest ones you can, and the rebuild should be about 400 or 500 bucks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what car are you running again? the 88 SI ? hmmm i remeber todd reid (user name mabye misspelled) had some show room stock koni's for this car i think.

if not find the cheapest ones you can, and the rebuild should be about 400 or 500 bucks</TD></TR></TABLE>

88 Si... the Accord is has served its racing life.

I'll touch base with the Toddmeister and ask him what he had on his car.

Sean who wants to wake up tomorrow and find a million bucks... actually 2k would do nicely.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

88 Si... the Accord is has served its racing life.

I'll touch base with the Toddmeister and ask him what he had on his car.

Sean who wants to wake up tomorrow and find a million bucks... actually 2k would do nicely. </TD></TR></TABLE>

IRRC he had them for sale

edit- did a quick search, and it wasn't him. if i were you id make a post and ask who had them for sale. Im almost positive they were 88-91 something or other civic SI/ crx SI SS koni's

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IRRC he had them for sale</TD></TR></TABLE>

Shocks are a long term thing... But, I'll definately ask him.

Car ain't going anywhere without a clutch, new axles or brakes.

Hell I may have to sell those jackstands for cinderblocks... cinderblocks racer member #1.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by M23Accord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had AGX's on my 96 EX for years and just switched to the yellows recently. Trust me, the yellows are FAR superior. Well worth the extra cash. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I ran AGX's when I first start auto-x and track events, when I switch to Yellows it was like going from stock to the agx's there was such a big differnce in how they perform.

 

Hmm, yeah. AGX's: definitely a Fawk no. As Lee(I think) recently mentioned, changing bump and rebound at the same time is something of a horrible experience. Well, maybe not horrible, but it sucks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chjkingme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmm, yeah. AGX's: definitely a Fawk no. As Lee(I think) recently mentioned, changing bump and rebound at the same time is something of a horrible experience. Well, maybe not horrible, but it sucks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

funny you mention that.

many of us here know who mark ortiz is, as the vehicle dynamics guru and publishes the back cover segment in Racecar Engineering magazine. in his April/May/June 2003 3 part article on "Shock and Spring Forces", he basically breaks down suspension in every response from position, to velocity, to "jerk" (the acceleration of acceleration) at each basic stage of turning (braking, turn in, middle, exit). the article prints out to be 13 pages. quite a long read. but its just that detailed, and yet he has to make a lot of simplifications. theres a thread with the link that i downloaded the article among many of his from. i printed it them all out and keep it near the crapper...

anyway, whats relevant is that at the VERY END of this 3 part article, he writes this note. and im going to bother to type it all out because, well, i want to.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mark Ortiz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Regarding whether to add or reduce damping on compression or extension, and at high velocities or low, some widely repeated advice would have us set compression damping to control sprung mass motion, and set extension damping to control unsprung mass motion. In my opinion, this is incorrect. At some time it may have served as simple advice to racers faced with setting the earliest double-adjustable shocks, but now we have revalveable and four-way adjustable shocks, and reasonably good shock dynos. My advice nowadays is:

1) Use low-speed damping, in both extension and compression, to manage transient weight transfer and sprung mass motion. Do not expect this to work unless the surface is smooth enough so that sprung mass motion is the main cause of suspension movement. Use the springs and bars as your main means of managing weight transfer.

2) Use damping properties at velocities above 2 in/sec to manage sprung and unsprung mass behavior over road irregularities. Again, both compression and extension matter.

3) Keep compression and extension damping in reasonable proportion to each other. At most absolute velocities, extension damping should be at least a little stiffer than compression damping, but not more than twice as stiff and never more than three times as stiff unless you are deliberately trying to make the car jack down.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think mark ortiz' point is rather clear, and is contrary to what CRX Lee has been saying. now, i dont want to point out that Lee doesnt know what he's talking about. i dont think anyone could possibly take away his experience and knowledge. nor is my point to reflect anything negative about the success and customer satisfaction of koni products. I just want to add some other perspective on this topic. if i have taken anything out of context, then please forgive me.

 

Actually his statement is not contrary to what I said. In fact, I have never heard anyone say "rebound for unsprung, compression for sprung" so I strongly wonder if he is does not have his information confused or an error was not caught in his writing or editting.

I have and will continue many times to say "rebound for sprung, compression for unsprung". I have no expereince where this does not work very well and lots of experience where it absolutely does. This is also consistant with the Koni philosophy that has been developed over 50+ years of international motorsports (by far and away the most successful damper company in the history of motorsports) and many more years of damper manufacturing. I do agree with many of Mr. Ortiz's comments about the lower speeds being induced by sprung weight body motion and the higher speeds typically being induced by road surface inputs and that can/should be taken into consideration. I would not by any means go so far at to say that 2 in/sec is the breakoff as there is a lot of information and context being left out or taken for granted. The basic motion ratio of the car and what the car is (F1 car, sports racer, production sedan, etc.) is vital but left out of a sweeping statement like this.

I don't know Mr. Ortiz or what his specific background is. I have read only a few of his articles as my copy of Racecar Engineering gets swiped from my mailbox on a regular basis by other folks in my office which is okay with me. I have had the opportunity to meet and talk with a number of people (a dozen or more) in the suspension, engine, tire and oil categories who have been put up on a pedestal as a guru by themselves or others. A number of them have written books and some write columns for magazines and papers. I have generally found some very interesting information from many of these people and I have also found some information that was very much wrong or at best taken out of a specific context or application and broadly applied to the greater realm which in fact it was incorrect for. I have found most to be very engaging people and a few to be amongst the most egotistical folks I have ever met. One in particular whom I call a friend is very interesting, experienced and chock full of great info but is so full of himself that I often say that he "just needs a good listening to". I have met several people who have written books that I don't think they really are fully qualified to state what they are saying as definitive fact by others. Guidance yes (or sometimes only maybe)... but not necessarily the final truth. These folks are simply (or hopefully) just regular people who have more experience, information or insight than their audience who are willing to share their info and should not necessarily be taken as the masters of final truth.

I think any time a person is put on a pedestal as a guru, some people want to bow down and absorb it as gospel and others want to take pot shots at them. I strongly believe that the best category is a third where an interested individual listens well and applies that person's information to fit his ideas into their own model of understanding and embraces the parts that make sense and work for them, stores the info that may not yet work for them and discards the chaff that they don't beleive. Experience and understanding are very valuable and are a great for learning and teaching but one must be careful or at least aware of where it comes from and how it is applied because there are many variables that can alter or void it. It is ultimately the listener's responsibility to learn and discern and he should be careful not to follow blindly.


PS- Any time "jacking down" gets mentioned, it goes right up my spine if it crosses over from the theoretical or at best extreme situation and gets applied to a real world situation or the broader model. I think far too many people talk about it and I have not seen in really happen in any real world situation. It would require the most extreme very, very softly sprung vehicle and a hideously overdamped situation that would be so greatly compromised that it should never be let get to that point. I had a high school teacher who used to use the word "piffle" for this kind of essentially non-reality.


Modified by CRX Lee at 7:17 AM 12/7/2005

 

Uhhh, allow me to apologize for making such a blanket statement. I was in the middle of writing a paper and didn't put much effort into my post.

I was referring more specifically to my personal experience with the KYB's in an autocross situation. With the spring rates I ran at the time(3-400#), I found myself wishing for more rebound damping in the full range of speeds I put the shocks through. At the same time, on a bumpy lot, I would have liked to have been able to turn down the compression stiffness, especially as piston speeds increased.

That, combined with the overall lack of any great range of adjustment, lead me to the position upon which I now stand, hopefully a little more clearly. They suck like Kansas winter. Well, maybe they suck in the exact opposite way Kansas weather in general sucks.

 

Chjkingme,
Your comments were correct that tying the bump and rebound together can often lead to a situation of an appropriate amount of one can mean having too little or too much of the other and an unwelcome compromise. I have experienced a similar situation in the part when loaned a friend's car with a spring upgrade and dampers that tied the two together. In the end, I got frsutrated and parked the car becasue it wouldn't do what I felt it needed to.


My lengthy diatribe was in response to the post about Mr. Ortiz's comments. Sorry to the original poster for letting this thread head off at a tangent but it was something that I thought needed to be followed up on.

We now return you to your regulalry scheduled thread...