could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars?????
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From: mother russia
could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars?????
the answer is no, 
but i had to say something provacative to get you to look...
ok so it seems that in order for fwd cars to get good traction at the drag strip you need to have stiff rear suspension or wheely bars to avoid the rear suspension compressing too much under the weight transfer when you launch.
now in order to have a civic that is a good road race contender people generally go with stiff front suspension and slightly softer rear suspension. this setup would not be ideal on the drag strip.
so you pretty much have to use a streetable suspension that is not going to be ideal for either situation, or you can try to drive on the street with your drag strip setup but the ride will not be so good and handling goes right out the window, or you can build your car for the road course but it will not be so good at the drag strip.
i was trying to think of a way that you could setup your suspension for decent handling that wouldnt suck ***** at the dragstrip. i am going to propose a solution.
before i do, i want to say that i am no expert by any means, and i may very well be presenting the stupidest idea the human race has ever seen. with that in mind, i would like to add that i am general respectful to fellow h-techers, so please tell me if my idea is crappy but you dont have to be a dick about it.
my idea:
what if you set up your suspension the way you would like it for street driving or autocross or whatever and then you install and airbag system in the rear compartment, that when activated, would cause a pushrod to force downward on the lower control arm. the stiffness from the airbag would act the same as really stiff rear springs.
when the airbags are in use the spring and dampers are overridden and no longer in use. and when the airbags are turned off they are overridden by the suspension and no longer in use.
in the drawing, i used a cam/rocker arm (the triangle) and a pushrod to connect the upward movement of the airbag as it expands, to the downward movement of the control rod.
(some people dont understand pushrod type suspension components, so if this concept is confusing, then just consider that the airbags are sitting directly parrallel to the damper. obviously you would not be able to do that due to packaging constraints but this cam and pushrod system allows you to get the same movement but from a different location. the rocker arm or cam (the triangle) is nothing more than a lever the fulcrum is the red bolt)
these are pics of the rear suspension on an EG civic.
in the first pic you can see that the airbag is deflated and the car is in its normal lowered position.
in the second picture thye airbag inflates and it pushes up on the rocker arm and the rocker arm transfers the movement to the pushrod, and it pushes it downward on to the lower control arm. when this happens the car is of course raised a bit, but lets not get distracted by that. the purpose of this device is not to raise the rear of the car. the purpose is to stiffen the rear suspension. i drew the car in its lowered position first and then when the airbag activates it lifts the car, which is a realistic possibility but that is all based on the design parameters of such a system.
the point is, that i showed the rear of the car lifting only as a visual aid, again, lifting the rear is not the purpose, stiffening the rear is.
i could have very well drew this so that there was a gap between the rocker arm and the top of the airbag but i think it would have been trickier to visualize.
so in picture 2 you see that the airbag has inflated and the process occurs so that you now have stiff rear suspension, and when you release the pressure form the sirbags the suspsnion takes over and you are back to you ideal street setup.
this would be beneficial since it would keep people form either trying to drive a drag setup on the street or vice versa, and it would keep you from having to swap out form street suspension to drag suspension.
now i know that i letf out thetrailing arm, and i know that i didnt draw any type of mounts for the cam and blah blah blah. it is a simplified drawing so use your imagination.
i think that if this design is possible then you could make a civic a better all around performer instead of having to pick between one edn of the spectrum. now it seems that for some people if they want a ten second car, they just race it on street suspension and they run an engine setup that makes 700 hp. but think of the benefit of being able to run the same quarter mile with less horsepower, or keep the same horsepower and run even faster.
the only real downside that i an see to this setup is that you would have to cut a hole for the pushrod to go through the bottom of the car to the control arm, which is no big deal, and then they other issue is added weight. i dont have a clue as to how much this **** weighs, but i can say that you could go with the lightest most low duty system of air nags because if you change the dimensions of the cam (lever) you can increae the mechanical advantage of the systme and therefore you will be using leverage to make the weak airbags perform on par with the stronger versions.
another idea would be to make a wheely bar that is activated by airbags so when you are crusing around on the street and you pull into the drag strip, you hit the button and the wheely bars comedown and they do thier thing like normal. and then when you are done, you relase the pressure and the wheel bars return to thier normal position under the car.
either way you are trying counter act the weight transfer.
if this is actually a good idea, i am sure that i am not the first person to come up with it, so dont think that i think im some kind of hotrod einstein or something.
also, i started another thread on here to get some info about airbag systmes, but it is for something completley unrelated to this. and unrelated to cars in general.
if you have any info about airbags systmes and thier weight please check out the other post i made:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1453441
again, unrelated so dont accuse me of a repost.
so there you have it. discuss
but i had to say something provacative to get you to look...ok so it seems that in order for fwd cars to get good traction at the drag strip you need to have stiff rear suspension or wheely bars to avoid the rear suspension compressing too much under the weight transfer when you launch.
now in order to have a civic that is a good road race contender people generally go with stiff front suspension and slightly softer rear suspension. this setup would not be ideal on the drag strip.
so you pretty much have to use a streetable suspension that is not going to be ideal for either situation, or you can try to drive on the street with your drag strip setup but the ride will not be so good and handling goes right out the window, or you can build your car for the road course but it will not be so good at the drag strip.
i was trying to think of a way that you could setup your suspension for decent handling that wouldnt suck ***** at the dragstrip. i am going to propose a solution.
before i do, i want to say that i am no expert by any means, and i may very well be presenting the stupidest idea the human race has ever seen. with that in mind, i would like to add that i am general respectful to fellow h-techers, so please tell me if my idea is crappy but you dont have to be a dick about it.
my idea:
what if you set up your suspension the way you would like it for street driving or autocross or whatever and then you install and airbag system in the rear compartment, that when activated, would cause a pushrod to force downward on the lower control arm. the stiffness from the airbag would act the same as really stiff rear springs.
when the airbags are in use the spring and dampers are overridden and no longer in use. and when the airbags are turned off they are overridden by the suspension and no longer in use.
in the drawing, i used a cam/rocker arm (the triangle) and a pushrod to connect the upward movement of the airbag as it expands, to the downward movement of the control rod.
(some people dont understand pushrod type suspension components, so if this concept is confusing, then just consider that the airbags are sitting directly parrallel to the damper. obviously you would not be able to do that due to packaging constraints but this cam and pushrod system allows you to get the same movement but from a different location. the rocker arm or cam (the triangle) is nothing more than a lever the fulcrum is the red bolt)
these are pics of the rear suspension on an EG civic.
in the first pic you can see that the airbag is deflated and the car is in its normal lowered position.
in the second picture thye airbag inflates and it pushes up on the rocker arm and the rocker arm transfers the movement to the pushrod, and it pushes it downward on to the lower control arm. when this happens the car is of course raised a bit, but lets not get distracted by that. the purpose of this device is not to raise the rear of the car. the purpose is to stiffen the rear suspension. i drew the car in its lowered position first and then when the airbag activates it lifts the car, which is a realistic possibility but that is all based on the design parameters of such a system.
the point is, that i showed the rear of the car lifting only as a visual aid, again, lifting the rear is not the purpose, stiffening the rear is.
i could have very well drew this so that there was a gap between the rocker arm and the top of the airbag but i think it would have been trickier to visualize.
so in picture 2 you see that the airbag has inflated and the process occurs so that you now have stiff rear suspension, and when you release the pressure form the sirbags the suspsnion takes over and you are back to you ideal street setup.
this would be beneficial since it would keep people form either trying to drive a drag setup on the street or vice versa, and it would keep you from having to swap out form street suspension to drag suspension.
now i know that i letf out thetrailing arm, and i know that i didnt draw any type of mounts for the cam and blah blah blah. it is a simplified drawing so use your imagination.
i think that if this design is possible then you could make a civic a better all around performer instead of having to pick between one edn of the spectrum. now it seems that for some people if they want a ten second car, they just race it on street suspension and they run an engine setup that makes 700 hp. but think of the benefit of being able to run the same quarter mile with less horsepower, or keep the same horsepower and run even faster.
the only real downside that i an see to this setup is that you would have to cut a hole for the pushrod to go through the bottom of the car to the control arm, which is no big deal, and then they other issue is added weight. i dont have a clue as to how much this **** weighs, but i can say that you could go with the lightest most low duty system of air nags because if you change the dimensions of the cam (lever) you can increae the mechanical advantage of the systme and therefore you will be using leverage to make the weak airbags perform on par with the stronger versions.
another idea would be to make a wheely bar that is activated by airbags so when you are crusing around on the street and you pull into the drag strip, you hit the button and the wheely bars comedown and they do thier thing like normal. and then when you are done, you relase the pressure and the wheel bars return to thier normal position under the car.
either way you are trying counter act the weight transfer.
if this is actually a good idea, i am sure that i am not the first person to come up with it, so dont think that i think im some kind of hotrod einstein or something.
also, i started another thread on here to get some info about airbag systmes, but it is for something completley unrelated to this. and unrelated to cars in general.
if you have any info about airbags systmes and thier weight please check out the other post i made:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1453441
again, unrelated so dont accuse me of a repost.
so there you have it. discuss
Thread Starter
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From: mother russia
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (Mr.E.G.)
oh also, another disadvantage would be unsprung weight.
but i think it would be worth it if you could have a car that does it all
but i think it would be worth it if you could have a car that does it all
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From: Lansdale, PA
Re: (Mr.E.G.)
i belive rwd cars have been using the airbag idea for years now. instead their air-bag is more "like" a helper spring you would install on a pickup. its those orange ones that fit inside a regualar coil spring. it helps them control "body roll" or "twist" off the line, helps both rear tires stay planted.
in your drawing, are those locations just to give an idea or did you see what kind of ratio you are getting with that cantilever setup?
in your drawing, are those locations just to give an idea or did you see what kind of ratio you are getting with that cantilever setup?
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From: mother russia
Re: (Dturbocivic)
just a simplified drawing. idealy i think in place of the cam you would want to use something that more resembled the lower control arm. like a long lever where the fulcrum is very near the pushrod.
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From: mother russia
Re: (Mr.E.G.)
i'd really like to hear the opinion of tony1 or some of the other pros who know all of the stuff that these cars suspension go through during racing
...not to say that no one else is right or anything, i just know tony palo by name, but i am sure that there are several on here who know thier ****
...not to say that no one else is right or anything, i just know tony palo by name, but i am sure that there are several on here who know thier ****
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From: Louisville, KY, US
Re: (Mr.E.G.)
alot of my autoX friends actually tend to run a higher rear spring than front spring. 400/500 and others use 600/800. So the idea of road guys wanting softer rear springs than fronts isn't all that true. Alot like to have oversteer rather than understreer, the stiffer rear spring helps that greatly.
as for the airbag idea, could definatly work, but i'd rather not get anything near that extreme, as i don't know where it would all fit with 15in rims in the back. but it is a problem that alot of sportman guys face.
as for the airbag idea, could definatly work, but i'd rather not get anything near that extreme, as i don't know where it would all fit with 15in rims in the back. but it is a problem that alot of sportman guys face.
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From: Wa
Re: (seen4ever)
If you go to the suspension forum you'll see that most of the guys run stiffer in the rear and softer in the front as stated above. I run 450/1000 myself and it handles pretty good.
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From: mother russia
Re: (seen4ever)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">alot of my autoX friends actually tend to run a higher rear spring than front spring. 400/500 and others use 600/800. So the idea of road guys wanting softer rear springs than fronts isn't all that true. Alot like to have oversteer rather than understreer, the stiffer rear spring helps that greatly.
as for the airbag idea, could definatly work, but i'd rather not get anything near that extreme, as i don't know where it would all fit with 15in rims in the back. but it is a problem that alot of sportman guys face.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i know that some people prefer the stiffer rear suspension but most kits come with stiffer front and softer rear. also that setup is probably better for regular street driving.
i know that this wont accomodate the most extreme of either example road race or drag but i think it can help to achieve an all around set up. you can have a decent road race setup and then flip it to drag racing setup.
like i said, it may be a stupid idea
as for the airbag idea, could definatly work, but i'd rather not get anything near that extreme, as i don't know where it would all fit with 15in rims in the back. but it is a problem that alot of sportman guys face.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i know that some people prefer the stiffer rear suspension but most kits come with stiffer front and softer rear. also that setup is probably better for regular street driving.
i know that this wont accomodate the most extreme of either example road race or drag but i think it can help to achieve an all around set up. you can have a decent road race setup and then flip it to drag racing setup.
like i said, it may be a stupid idea
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From: Torrance 310, California, USA
Re: (vtecmissle)
just curious...I don't know anything about air bag type suspension. But how stiff would it be? Isn't it illegal to have locked suspension? Would this allow travel at all? Almost reminds me of people putting welded shocks in the back when drag racing...just more work.
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Re: (91civicDXdude)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91civicDXdude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">airbag suspension of any kind is illegal for NHRA competition</TD></TR></TABLE>
You could possibly get away with it in sfwd... It says the suspension has to be bolt on it never excludes anything as long as it is bolt on... i might be wrong though
You could possibly get away with it in sfwd... It says the suspension has to be bolt on it never excludes anything as long as it is bolt on... i might be wrong though
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From: mother russia
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (I R Tylor)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I R Tylor »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think adjustable coilovers would be a simpler, more cost effective way, but not a bad idea.</TD></TR></TABLE>
maybe i'm confused about adjustable coilovers, but i thought that all you could do with that is adjust ride height and damping force. and as far as i know it damping force is can only control how quickly the spring reacts but it cant change the spring rate.
so if you have softer rear springs and then you adjust the dampers you still have soft rear springs.
am i mistaken
maybe i'm confused about adjustable coilovers, but i thought that all you could do with that is adjust ride height and damping force. and as far as i know it damping force is can only control how quickly the spring reacts but it cant change the spring rate.
so if you have softer rear springs and then you adjust the dampers you still have soft rear springs.
am i mistaken
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From: BeLlInGhAm, Wa
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (Mr.E.G.)
electronically controlled dampners with fulladjustable spring rates... all controlled by an EMS like computer that depending on gear/speed/lateral g force/axial g force changed your dampning rate and your spring rate to maximize performance at that "cell"
basically ems for your suspension.
basically ems for your suspension.
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, US
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (~RTErnie~)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ~RTErnie~ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">electronically controlled dampners with fulladjustable spring rates... all controlled by an EMS like computer that depending on gear/speed/lateral g force/axial g force changed your dampning rate and your spring rate to maximize performance at that "cell"
basically ems for your suspension. </TD></TR></TABLE>
KONI has a shock that is electronic controlled and I have been thinking about using it for some time now. I have not had time to research it much but it could be the exact idea and it is legal in the NHRA. Most Pro RWD and all Pro Stock guys use it.
basically ems for your suspension.
</TD></TR></TABLE>KONI has a shock that is electronic controlled and I have been thinking about using it for some time now. I have not had time to research it much but it could be the exact idea and it is legal in the NHRA. Most Pro RWD and all Pro Stock guys use it.
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From: mother russia
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (~RTErnie~)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ~RTErnie~ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">electronically controlled dampners with fulladjustable spring rates... all controlled by an EMS like computer that depending on gear/speed/lateral g force/axial g force changed your dampning rate and your spring rate to maximize performance at that "cell"
basically ems for your suspension. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CDR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">KONI has a shock that is electronic controlled and I have been thinking about using it for some time now. I have not had time to research it much but it could be the exact idea and it is legal in the NHRA. Most Pro RWD and all Pro Stock guys use it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
holy ****, i never knew something like that existed
how does it actually work? how does it make the springs stiffer?
basically ems for your suspension.
</TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CDR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">KONI has a shock that is electronic controlled and I have been thinking about using it for some time now. I have not had time to research it much but it could be the exact idea and it is legal in the NHRA. Most Pro RWD and all Pro Stock guys use it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
holy ****, i never knew something like that existed
how does it actually work? how does it make the springs stiffer?
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, US
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (Mr.E.G.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">holy ****, i never knew something like that existed
how does it actually work? how does it make the springs stiffer?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It doesn't effect the springs at all, it is all in the shock. My personal chassis and suspension theory is it is more in the shock then the spring. Figure out the right valving on the shock and you will probably improve your numbers overall. If I can get my budget sorted out for next year I might make the change to test it out.
how does it actually work? how does it make the springs stiffer?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It doesn't effect the springs at all, it is all in the shock. My personal chassis and suspension theory is it is more in the shock then the spring. Figure out the right valving on the shock and you will probably improve your numbers overall. If I can get my budget sorted out for next year I might make the change to test it out.
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From: Corona, Ca, United States of America
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (CDR)
Here is a PDF of the Electric Koni's.. They are used in Pro Stock http://www.koniracing.com/pdf/electric.pdf
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From: mother russia
Re: could this mod make civics the ultimate street cars????? (CDR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CDR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It doesn't effect the springs at all, it is all in the shock. My personal chassis and suspension theory is it is more in the shock then the spring. Figure out the right valving on the shock and you will probably improve your numbers overall. If I can get my budget sorted out for next year I might make the change to test it out.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i may be way wrong as far as what i have said previously about road race suspensions but to make a front wheel drive drag car you need stiff rear suspension. if you have regular springs can the damper really make that much difference.
now when i had my civic i had tein suspension (which i wont do again) and they were adjustable, so when i would drag launch my car, which was very rare, i would set the rear at maximum stiffness and the front at thier softest seting. i definatley could tell a difference but i had a stock b20 and i didnt make enough power to really launch crazy and toss the wieght around. but i can definatley say that with the stiff reae dampers and weak front dampers my car was all over the ******* place.
i may be way wrong as far as what i have said previously about road race suspensions but to make a front wheel drive drag car you need stiff rear suspension. if you have regular springs can the damper really make that much difference.
now when i had my civic i had tein suspension (which i wont do again) and they were adjustable, so when i would drag launch my car, which was very rare, i would set the rear at maximum stiffness and the front at thier softest seting. i definatley could tell a difference but i had a stock b20 and i didnt make enough power to really launch crazy and toss the wieght around. but i can definatley say that with the stiff reae dampers and weak front dampers my car was all over the ******* place.