I am about to install some Tokico Illuminas and H&R Sport springs into my 95 Integra. I am told by some I will need a camber kit because an alignment will only fix about 1.x degrees of camber. I am also told by others that I just need to have my toe adjusted and I will not require a camber kit. I cannot understand the version about the toe.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me please?

Any replies will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

 

no need for a camber kit, just have the toe set as close to zero as they can and you're good

 

But won't the tires still be in a slant?

I really can't grasp how not using a camber kit will prevent tire wear.

Sorry for being difficult, but I really just want to understand the technical stuff behind it.

ThanX.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5er &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But won't the tires still be in a slant?

I really can't grasp how not using a camber kit will prevent tire wear.

Sorry for being difficult, but I really just want to understand the technical stuff behind it.

ThanX.</TD></TR></TABLE>

negative camber doesn't wear out the tires like you'd think it does. Do a search it's been covered many times here

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no need for a camber kit, just have the toe set as close to zero as they can and you're good </TD></TR></TABLE>

i corrected mine from -4 to -2.5 in the front and now i want the -4 back...lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by projectTeG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i corrected mine from -4 to -2.5 in the front and now i want the -4 back...lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

me too.. i like those 4 degrees.. makes the car aggressive

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joon Joon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">me too.. i like those 4 degrees.. makes the car aggressive</TD></TR></TABLE>

....it also makes the car stop and accelerate slower....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....it also makes the car stop and accelerate slower....</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would think tire compound and pressure would make more difference than the camber, for braking anyway, but I am no expert. For acceleration, if you have that much wheelspin, not wure what to say to that...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would think tire compound and pressure would make more difference than the camber, for braking anyway, but I am no expert. For acceleration, if you have that much wheelspin, not wure what to say to that...</TD></TR></TABLE>

What exactly are you saying?

The more camber you run the worse the straight-line performance will be. There are no freebies here, it's the balance of shortcomings that matters.

 

So, as long as my toe is set to as close to 0 as possible, i shouldn't have any tire wear?

Or will it just be less wear?

Thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5er &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, as long as my toe is set to as close to 0 as possible, i shouldn't have any tire wear?

Or will it just be less wear?

Thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

technically there will be SOME wear due to camber. but it's not that much at all. it's certainly not worth throwing 300 bucks at if tire wear is your only concern.

just as an example, my azenis are on mile 12,000 or so. camber is about 2 degrees all around. tread depth difference between the outside and inside shoulder is minimal. these tires should die at about mile 17,000 with pretty much even wear, maybe a 1/32nd" difference between inside and outside shoulders.

i can't even really conjecture how much of the difference is due to camber. there was a 3 week period after i had changed ride height where i was unable to get the car aligned. those three weeks could have had a very drastic effect on the tire wear.

camber by itself isn't a big issue. adding toe to camber, and you'll get the ugly tire wear issues. Camber + toe will ruin a set of tires in a matter of a couple thousand miles.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What exactly are you saying?

The more camber you run the worse the straight-line performance will be. There are no freebies here, it's the balance of shortcomings that matters.</TD></TR></TABLE>

First off, I am no expert, I only know what I have read and what makes sense to me thinking about it. My actual track experience is somewhat limited, just auto-x and HPDEs, so there are certainly many people who know more than me on here...

I'm saying that even if you have massive camber, and you don't have wheelspin, then its not affecting your acceleration, because you obviously still have enough traction. And considering that on track acceleration begins during the turn, I would think any additional traction in the turn would help the acceleration during turn exit. I suppose not having a LSD could change that, as you could overload the grip of the inside front tire and spin just the inside tire.

As far as changing braking, yes, any reduction in traction will increase braking distance, but I don't personally think the difference between 0 camber and 3 degrees is all that much. Even with 3 degrees, if you have a reasonable tire pressure for the tires, the entire tread of the tire is still in contact with the ground. But, I have yet to see anyone do a conclusive test showing the change in braking distance between two different camber settings on the same car, so I'm only throwing out what makes sense to me.

Also, I'm thinking that this is probably not that benefitial to the original poster, as it sounds more like he has a street car. In which case, I think the 2* or so negative camber he'll get from simple lowering springs will not hurt his street performance enough to measure or matter.

And as previously stated, this entire post is just my opinions. I don't have any reference material to back me up on this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5er &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So, as long as my toe is set to as close to 0 as possible, i shouldn't have any tire wear?

Or will it just be less wear?

Thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any inner wear that does occour from the added negative camber will most likely be offset by agressive cornering wearing the outer edge of the tire...

 

Good to know guys, good to know.

Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate it.

Keep any more info coming if you guys can. I really want to learn more.

ThanX.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Even with 3 degrees, if you have a reasonable tire pressure for the tires, the entire tread of the tire is still in contact with the ground. But, I have yet to see anyone do a conclusive test showing the change in braking distance between two different camber settings on the same car, so I'm only throwing out what makes sense to me.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's not how it works.

Keep in mind that I was commenting on someone wanting 4 degrees of camber.

With that said, the overall area of the contact patch will change it's shape as camber is added or removed, regardless of tire pressure, and as the weight transfers forward under braking the suspension will compress and add even more camber in our cars. The shape of the contact patch of a heavily cambered tire is not ideal for straight line performance, that's just how it is.

It is a fact that the braking distance will be affected, the only question is by how much. All I was pointing at is that running 4 degrees of negative camber on the street is far from an optimal setting, even runing that much negative on track is far from benefitial unless it's overcoming some other defficiency.




Modified by El Pollo Diablo at 10:01 PM 11/15/2005

 

crazy chicken is right. Or he thinks the same way RTR does.


they run a strut RSX and a double wishbone TSX same motor, so the weight should be the same. But RTR fought for lighter weights on the RSX because it is a strut car, has to run the camber it wants for corning all the time. SCCA agreed with them, i think they gave a nice weight reduction also.


Some strut cars run enough neg camber, the you can actually see the contact patch is not the whole tire.

 

you the only way you will be able to fix your camber is by getting the upper control wishbone camber kit and the rear dog camber kit they ajusts the camber the stock one that come with the car cannot do it.

 

For the toe adjustment, is this a normal procedure for when you go in for an alignment? Or do you have to ask them to set it back to as close to 0 as possible?

ThanX.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5er &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For the toe adjustment, is this a normal procedure for when you go in for an alignment? Or do you have to ask them to set it back to as close to 0 as possible?

ThanX.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would ask them to do it and ask for a printout of the before and after. If they say that they can't, go elsewhere. Some places will get it "in spec" which can be pretty far off.

 

After taking a look at the topics in this forum, i see that a lot of people including myself are asking this same very question. Wouldn't it be a good idea to have someone do a writeup on why a camber kit is not necessary and then sticky it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5er &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Or do you have to ask them to set it back to as close to 0 as possible?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You have to ask them to set it to 0, and definitely get a printout. The thing about toe is that your tires are more sensitive to it as the camber increases. I used to be able to run 1/16 out in the front (in spec), but after lowering the car more, that setting started to cause some wear. I caught it in time, set to 0, and I've been good to go ever since.