How low is to low, from a performance aspect
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From: Chicopee, MA
How low is to low, from a performance aspect
I recently got my Koni / GC combo on, and ofcourse my first natural instinct was to slam it to the ground for that cool factor. Now that that has worn off, it's time to adjust the suspension for ideal performance. My question is, what's the ideal amount of lowering suggested. Keeping in mind center of gravity, shock travel, level of dampening, and that I am on the standard Integra spring rates from GC.
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From: Portland, OR
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (DISTURB3D)
low enough to get a good amount of camber, but not too low to where you're hitting bump stops on a regular basis. If you're hitting the bump stops your handling will go to crap. If you have the GC top hats it'll allow you to go lower, but you still have to be carefil about hitting the bump stops.
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (DISTURB3D)
honestly i think it varies a lot depending on the road conditions and driving but i think about 1.5 - 1.7 lower then stock is a good start
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From: Winnetka, Calif, USA
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (TurboEM1)
There are two major things you want to think about and it varies from car type to car type.
The first issue is clearance of the suspension members! This is real obvious. You don't want stuff bottoming out or hitting frame members.
The other issue has to deal with the geometry of the suspension. Think about the typical un-equal A-arm suspension. At normal height the arms are pretty much parallel with the ground. When the wheel moves up and down an inch while driving down the road there isn't very much camber change. The camber is changed while going over a bump or the car tilts during cornering due to the different arcs that the A-arms cut. The upper arm being shorter, it cuts a tighter arc.
When a car is lowered, the A-arms are no longer parallel to ground and the upper arm is at a more agressive section of the arc that it cuts. As a result, when you hit a bump or the car tilts during cornering, the camber change is more aggressive.
Some times this is good. Some times this is bad.
It all boils down to the fact that you are changing not only how high the car sits, you are also changing how the suspension acts!!!
Then there is also the problem of bump steer that should be thought of.
Wes
The first issue is clearance of the suspension members! This is real obvious. You don't want stuff bottoming out or hitting frame members.
The other issue has to deal with the geometry of the suspension. Think about the typical un-equal A-arm suspension. At normal height the arms are pretty much parallel with the ground. When the wheel moves up and down an inch while driving down the road there isn't very much camber change. The camber is changed while going over a bump or the car tilts during cornering due to the different arcs that the A-arms cut. The upper arm being shorter, it cuts a tighter arc.
When a car is lowered, the A-arms are no longer parallel to ground and the upper arm is at a more agressive section of the arc that it cuts. As a result, when you hit a bump or the car tilts during cornering, the camber change is more aggressive.
Some times this is good. Some times this is bad.
It all boils down to the fact that you are changing not only how high the car sits, you are also changing how the suspension acts!!!
Then there is also the problem of bump steer that should be thought of.
Wes
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From: Norcal
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (sirg-vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sirg-vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Two fingers gap FTW!</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, this should net you about 5-3/8" in the front jack points and about 5-1/2" at the rear jack points, and about 1" (or more) of shock travel before hitting the bumpstops. I'm sitting at teh above numbers at the jack points; i'm thinking about rasing it another 1/8" untill i get stiffer springs, i have 400F and 375R right now.
yes, this should net you about 5-3/8" in the front jack points and about 5-1/2" at the rear jack points, and about 1" (or more) of shock travel before hitting the bumpstops. I'm sitting at teh above numbers at the jack points; i'm thinking about rasing it another 1/8" untill i get stiffer springs, i have 400F and 375R right now.
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From: ATL to SAV to ORL, USA
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (sirg-vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sirg-vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Two fingers gap FTW!</TD></TR></TABLE>
GC extended top hats = 1 finger gap
GC extended top hats = 1 finger gap
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (Hybrid93Hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">GC extended top hats = 1 finger gap </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well this sort of measurement (as well as jacking point measurments) really depend upon tire size. 1-finger gap is quite a bit lower with a 205/40/16 when compared to a 205/45/16. Both those tire sizes are quite popular & work well on these cars. I suggest you make all your measurments from the center of the wheel up to the top of the wheel-well fender arc. This measurment will be very consistant no matter what size tires you use (unless your fender gets damaged).
Anything over -2" is gonna be more for looks than performance. If this is a street-only car, I suggest you don't worry about it. My civic handles the roads quite nicely at -2.5" with extended upper mounts on the front only...
</TD></TR></TABLE>Well this sort of measurement (as well as jacking point measurments) really depend upon tire size. 1-finger gap is quite a bit lower with a 205/40/16 when compared to a 205/45/16. Both those tire sizes are quite popular & work well on these cars. I suggest you make all your measurments from the center of the wheel up to the top of the wheel-well fender arc. This measurment will be very consistant no matter what size tires you use (unless your fender gets damaged).
Anything over -2" is gonna be more for looks than performance. If this is a street-only car, I suggest you don't worry about it. My civic handles the roads quite nicely at -2.5" with extended upper mounts on the front only...
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From: Sherman Oaks, CA, United States
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (chrisw85)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chrisw85 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes, this should net you about 5-3/8" in the front jack points and about 5-1/2" at the rear jack points, and about 1" (or more) of shock travel before hitting the bumpstops. I'm sitting at teh above numbers at the jack points; i'm thinking about rasing it another 1/8" untill i get stiffer springs, i have 400F and 375R right now.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed here, similar experiences. I'm up to 3 finger gap with 205/45-16s on my 00 gsr, to keep off the bumpstops with 400/400 springs. The car looked damn good with flushed tires, but wouldn't rotate for **** on the bumpstops like that. Was at 2 finger gap, and was still hitting the bumpstops @ Willow Springs, and occasionally banging the UCA into the inner fender on the street.
Before you buy aftermarket UCAs, think about how much suspension travel you need, but they all seem taller than stock, and remove available travel before you get that nice metal to metal bang.
Agreed here, similar experiences. I'm up to 3 finger gap with 205/45-16s on my 00 gsr, to keep off the bumpstops with 400/400 springs. The car looked damn good with flushed tires, but wouldn't rotate for **** on the bumpstops like that. Was at 2 finger gap, and was still hitting the bumpstops @ Willow Springs, and occasionally banging the UCA into the inner fender on the street.
Before you buy aftermarket UCAs, think about how much suspension travel you need, but they all seem taller than stock, and remove available travel before you get that nice metal to metal bang.
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (TunerN00b)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Before you buy aftermarket UCAs, think about how much suspension travel you need, but they all seem taller than stock, and remove available travel before you get that nice metal to metal bang.</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is why I'm all about OEM UCAs (in their proper location)...
This is why I'm all about OEM UCAs (in their proper location)...
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From: NJ
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (94eg!)
Sorry to thread jack.......
I just recently got my GC/Koni installed, but when my car is on the lift, the springs dangle....the gold thing is not sitting flush with the bottom of the spring, or vice versa the spring is not sitting tight/flush with the top, bumpstop I'm assuming? I'd have to raise the gold clip, and I'm assuming doing that I won't get the desired drop I want.
Sorry I'm a suspension noob
Is this why I would need GC extended top hats.....if that is the case, how much do they go for?
Also I have 550f/500r spring rates. Bounces alot, and when I hit a bump, or hole feels crazy......Kind of hurts my back abit
Wanted something that handled really good for the twisties, and had nice grip. Thanks for the help
I just recently got my GC/Koni installed, but when my car is on the lift, the springs dangle....the gold thing is not sitting flush with the bottom of the spring, or vice versa the spring is not sitting tight/flush with the top, bumpstop I'm assuming? I'd have to raise the gold clip, and I'm assuming doing that I won't get the desired drop I want.
Sorry I'm a suspension noob
Is this why I would need GC extended top hats.....if that is the case, how much do they go for?Also I have 550f/500r spring rates. Bounces alot, and when I hit a bump, or hole feels crazy......Kind of hurts my back abit
Wanted something that handled really good for the twisties, and had nice grip. Thanks for the help
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From: Norcal
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (D-t)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D-t »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry to thread jack.......
I just recently got my GC/Koni installed, but when my car is on the lift, the springs dangle....the gold thing is not sitting flush with the bottom of the spring, or vice versa the spring is not sitting tight/flush with the top, bumpstop I'm assuming? I'd have to raise the gold clip, and I'm assuming doing that I won't get the desired drop I want.
Also I have 550f/500r spring rates. Bounces alot, and when I hit a bump, or hole feels crazy......Kind of hurts my back abit
: </TD></TR></TABLE>
you are hitting your bumpstops i assume, since you are so low, thats whats causing your bounciness and not so much the spring rate you have. remember lower is not always better. how low are you?
I just recently got my GC/Koni installed, but when my car is on the lift, the springs dangle....the gold thing is not sitting flush with the bottom of the spring, or vice versa the spring is not sitting tight/flush with the top, bumpstop I'm assuming? I'd have to raise the gold clip, and I'm assuming doing that I won't get the desired drop I want.
Also I have 550f/500r spring rates. Bounces alot, and when I hit a bump, or hole feels crazy......Kind of hurts my back abit
: </TD></TR></TABLE>
you are hitting your bumpstops i assume, since you are so low, thats whats causing your bounciness and not so much the spring rate you have. remember lower is not always better. how low are you?
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From: NJ
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (chrisw85)
Well the back is unbelievably low, I have to raise it. I am raising it today. I'm talking about -1 finger gap in the back. The front have about 1-1 1/2 finger gap. That is on 14" steelies w/ 195/60/14 tire size.
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (D-t)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D-t »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry to thread jack.......
I just recently got my GC/Koni installed, but when my car is on the lift, the springs dangle....the gold thing is not sitting flush with the bottom of the spring, or vice versa the spring is not sitting tight/flush with the top, bumpstop I'm assuming? I'd have to raise the gold clip, and I'm assuming doing that I won't get the desired drop I want.
Sorry I'm a suspension noob Is this why I would need GC extended top hats.....if that is the case, how much do they go for?
Also I have 550f/500r spring rates. Bounces alot, and when I hit a bump, or hole feels crazy......Kind of hurts my back abit
Wanted something that handled really good for the twisties, and had nice grip. Thanks for the help </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's totally normal for the springs to come loose when the suspension is at full droop. This won't effect the performance of the vehicle when it's on the ground, but does create a little extra work for you. I always make sure the springs are properly seating on both the upper & lower perches as I lower the car back down. I've had the spring get hung up before & it scared the hell out of me when POPPED back into place as I backed out of my driveway. Spring companies sell sets of near-zero rate springs called "helper springs" (not to be confused with "tender springs") that are meant to fill the gap & only expand at full droop. The problem is a set of them costs over $200 because you need to have special couplers to locate one spring at the end of the other.
As for the GC upper mounts, I recommend them for any Civic or Integra that's lowered 2" or more. You really only need them in the front because that's where these cars suffer from a lack of travel. The extended mounts will seriously reduce the amount of jarring shock you get when you hit bumps.
I just recently got my GC/Koni installed, but when my car is on the lift, the springs dangle....the gold thing is not sitting flush with the bottom of the spring, or vice versa the spring is not sitting tight/flush with the top, bumpstop I'm assuming? I'd have to raise the gold clip, and I'm assuming doing that I won't get the desired drop I want.
Sorry I'm a suspension noob
Is this why I would need GC extended top hats.....if that is the case, how much do they go for?Also I have 550f/500r spring rates. Bounces alot, and when I hit a bump, or hole feels crazy......Kind of hurts my back abit
Wanted something that handled really good for the twisties, and had nice grip. Thanks for the help
</TD></TR></TABLE>It's totally normal for the springs to come loose when the suspension is at full droop. This won't effect the performance of the vehicle when it's on the ground, but does create a little extra work for you. I always make sure the springs are properly seating on both the upper & lower perches as I lower the car back down. I've had the spring get hung up before & it scared the hell out of me when POPPED back into place as I backed out of my driveway. Spring companies sell sets of near-zero rate springs called "helper springs" (not to be confused with "tender springs") that are meant to fill the gap & only expand at full droop. The problem is a set of them costs over $200 because you need to have special couplers to locate one spring at the end of the other.
As for the GC upper mounts, I recommend them for any Civic or Integra that's lowered 2" or more. You really only need them in the front because that's where these cars suffer from a lack of travel. The extended mounts will seriously reduce the amount of jarring shock you get when you hit bumps.
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From: NJ
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (94eg!)
^^^^
Okay cool, thanks. I guess it is normal for the spring to dangle. I mean it wouldn't really make sense for it to seat perfectly if the car is on the lift. I was just getting worried because my friend also has gc/koni, and his front suspension feels hurt. Whenever he hits a moderate sized bump or bigger his front suspension kind of Clanks, and clings. So I got worried and though it might of been that when the car is on the lift since they don't fully extend all the way, glad that isn't the case.
What do you think could be wrong with his car though?
Okay cool, thanks. I guess it is normal for the spring to dangle. I mean it wouldn't really make sense for it to seat perfectly if the car is on the lift. I was just getting worried because my friend also has gc/koni, and his front suspension feels hurt. Whenever he hits a moderate sized bump or bigger his front suspension kind of Clanks, and clings. So I got worried and though it might of been that when the car is on the lift since they don't fully extend all the way, glad that isn't the case.
What do you think could be wrong with his car though?
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From: So Cal
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (D-t)
Usually cars feel loose if the bushings are damaged/ripped/dry/non-existant. It could be anything from a inner tie rod end (non visible) to a ball joint, or outter tie rod end, etc... My friend's car feels veeeery loose when you hit any irregularity in the road, and what do you see when you lift it, bushings are worn to crap 
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From: Portland, OR
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (94eg!)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well this sort of measurement (as well as jacking point measurments) really depend upon tire size....</TD></TR></TABLE>
not to mention finger size
The most consistent way to measure is from center of hub to top of fender arch. That way tire size and fat fingers don't sway your results.
not to mention finger size
The most consistent way to measure is from center of hub to top of fender arch. That way tire size and fat fingers don't sway your results.
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From: Portland, OR
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (D-t)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D-t »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> What do you think could be wrong with his car though?</TD></TR></TABLE>
could be bushings or tie rods as fast95eg8 mentioned. Could also be swaybar endlinks. I know that my Si endlinks clank a bit. I need to replace them with better links.
could be bushings or tie rods as fast95eg8 mentioned. Could also be swaybar endlinks. I know that my Si endlinks clank a bit. I need to replace them with better links.
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From: I heart tool, US
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (94eg!)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As for the GC upper mounts, I recommend them for any Civic or Integra that's lowered 2" or more. You really only need them in the front because that's where these cars suffer from a lack of travel. The extended mounts will seriously reduce the amount of jarring shock you get when you hit bumps. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I need these! It makes me cringe everytime I lift the car up and the spring drops from the upper mount. It makes me wonder sometimes if it could possible one day not seat upon compression.
As for the GC upper mounts, I recommend them for any Civic or Integra that's lowered 2" or more. You really only need them in the front because that's where these cars suffer from a lack of travel. The extended mounts will seriously reduce the amount of jarring shock you get when you hit bumps. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I need these! It makes me cringe everytime I lift the car up and the spring drops from the upper mount. It makes me wonder sometimes if it could possible one day not seat upon compression.
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From: NJ
Re: How low is to low, from a performance aspect (nonsense)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
could be bushings or tie rods as fast95eg8 mentioned. Could also be swaybar endlinks. I know that my Si endlinks clank a bit. I need to replace them with better links. </TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fast95eg8 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Usually cars feel loose if the bushings are damaged/ripped/dry/non-existant. It could be anything from a inner tie rod end (non visible) to a ball joint, or outter tie rod end, etc... My friend's car feels veeeery loose when you hit any irregularity in the road, and what do you see when you lift it, bushings are worn to crap </TD></TR></TABLE>
Already. His car is practically brand new....04 Civic Si.
AS for me I am riding in a 97 Integra LS. Although when I do hit a bump, it feels like the car and tires are about to break, I feel like I'm hurting it..hehe.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bryson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I need these! It makes me cringe everytime I lift the car up and the spring drops from the upper mount. It makes me wonder sometimes if it could possible one day not seat upon compression. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry I don't understand what you mean Bryson. Like I said this is my first suspension setup, so I don't know too much about it. I thought what I got out of my previous question was that when on the lift, the spring falls down the sleave, or sometimes it will just stay stuck in the upper mount. But when it's back down it compresses again right.....?
could be bushings or tie rods as fast95eg8 mentioned. Could also be swaybar endlinks. I know that my Si endlinks clank a bit. I need to replace them with better links. </TD></TR></TABLE><TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fast95eg8 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Usually cars feel loose if the bushings are damaged/ripped/dry/non-existant. It could be anything from a inner tie rod end (non visible) to a ball joint, or outter tie rod end, etc... My friend's car feels veeeery loose when you hit any irregularity in the road, and what do you see when you lift it, bushings are worn to crap </TD></TR></TABLE>
Already. His car is practically brand new....04 Civic Si.
AS for me I am riding in a 97 Integra LS. Although when I do hit a bump, it feels like the car and tires are about to break, I feel like I'm hurting it..hehe.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bryson »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I need these! It makes me cringe everytime I lift the car up and the spring drops from the upper mount. It makes me wonder sometimes if it could possible one day not seat upon compression. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry I don't understand what you mean Bryson. Like I said this is my first suspension setup, so I don't know too much about it. I thought what I got out of my previous question was that when on the lift, the spring falls down the sleave, or sometimes it will just stay stuck in the upper mount. But when it's back down it compresses again right.....?
