Please help NASA Mid-Atlantic with some market research about proposed expansion of the autocross program for 2006.

We're facing a possible shortage of autocross sites and/or available event dates, so it may be time to start thinking about some other options.

For starters, we assume the following:

1) Autocrosses and high performance driving schools on road courses are different kinds of events with potentially different types of participants:

a] Autocross is 3-5 minutes of seat time for $30ish. Top speeds are ~60mph. These events usually take one day and for most participants, don't involve overnight lodging. Wear and tear on the car is minimal.

b] Track events on road courses are 2-3 hours of seat time for $300ish. Top speeds are often well above 100mph once per lap. These events usually take all weekend and require significantly higher expenses (fuel, lodging, tires, brakes, etc.)

2) There are a large number of autocrossers who don't do traditional weekend track events (NASA or otherwise) because of the following:

a] Significant costs involved

b] Significant time involved

c] Perception of risk due to high speeds and/or no insurance coverage

So what we are considering is the ultimate "in between" scenario. That is, the cheapest/easiest way to get some seat time on a road course WITHOUT spending $1000 a weekend and WITHOUT taking all weekend away from home and WITHOUT going 100+ mph around corners every lap.

Picture one or two single Sunday events on the Jefferson Circuit (1.1 miles, 7 turns, est 60mph average speed) at Summit Point Raceway outside Winchester, VA. Assume that these events will be professionally staffed, loaner helmets are available, air and fuel and lunch are available on-site, track day tech rules apply (i.e. rollbars in convertibles), and soforth.

Picture four groups of cars going on track, each with about 90 minutes of track time (three 30ish minute sessions) followed by a solo time trial against the clock for autocross championship points and/or trophies and/or prizes, broken into the following:

1) Group 1 - full day beginners. Street cars welcome, no experience required. A basic introduction to high performance driving. Several classroom sessions and three 30 minute sessions with an instructor riding shotgun, helping you improve your high performance driving skills with each lap. No passing in corners, and no passing without a signal from the driver being overtaken. Plus an optional solo time trial at the end of the day for autocross championship points and/or trophies and/or prizes. Estimated cost: $160 per driver. One group of ~20 drivers per event.

2) Group 2 - single session beginners. Same as a Group 1 drivers, but only for one classroom session and one 30-minute track session, and no entry in the time trial at the end of the day. Very similar to the now-legendary "HyperDrives" at NASA's Hyperfest events. Estimated cost: $60 per driver. The ULTIMATE (and MOST affordable) way to drive on a road course at speed as part of a day trip. Three groups of ~20 drivers per event.

3) Group 3 - solo (no instructors needed) drivers. Experienced intermedates and advanced drivers with solo experience at other events. Passing anywhere, even in corners, with a point-by. Plus entry in the aforementioned time trial at the end of the day.

A subset of Group 3 could be NASA Time Trialers out there running for times in regular group traffic with transponders in the car, and their fastest time of the weekend counts.

Group 3 would be one group of ~20 drivers per event. Estimated cost: $160 per driver (with surcharges for time trialers needing a transponder, etc.)

4) Group 4 - certified instructors. Passing anywhere with a point-by. Primarily to take students for rides at speed, for perspective. Plus entry in the time trial at the end of the day. One group of ~20 drivers. Estimated cost: TBA and free lunch.

The time trial at the end of the day would send people out alone in their cars (whether they had been signed-off to drive solo by their instructors or not) to test their skills one at a time against the clock. This would be a a warmup lap, 1-2 hot laps against the clock, then a cooldown lap. This time trial may or may not run in the reverse direction, or on a shorter/slower version of the track, or offset with cone sections if necessary, but it would definitely be run for double or triple points toward the 2006 NASA-MA autocross championship.

Keep in mind, this event would be "drivers education" and any on-track incidents would be professionally handled. We'd have a manned rescue squad and tow trucks waiting, just like a regular track event. Any on-track incidents should be covered by traditional auto insurance because they are for education, not for time (exceptions being any time trialers in group 3, and anyone who has an incident while participating in the optional TT at the end of the day.)

So the question is... would anyone be interested in something like this?

We're very eager to put on this type of event, to make road course driving as cheap and easy as it can possibly be, but we'll only book the dates if we think we can break even on them. (Needless to say, something like this costs a LOT more time, energy, and money to put on than your average autocross.)

Thanks in advance for all thoughts!

Jon Felton
Autocross coordinator, NASA-MA
804-397-FAST / nasacross05@get-fast.net

 

Oh, the other option would be a higher-speed autocross (but on a slowed-down version of the track, altered with cones) not unlike the ones SCCA did a few years ago. The problem with this setup is that it greatly reduces the amount of available track time per car.

Picture ~$75 per car and ~6 solo laps/runs each, on an empty track... as opposed to ~$160 per car and ~75 laps of the place (all in traffic except the few at the end of the day during the time trial.)

We could do it either way, but I believe that a beginner-friendly-by-design HPDE/TT and a bunch of Hyperdrives is probably a better way to spend the day.

What would YOU want to see, if you were an autocrosser thinking about doing your first track event?

Food for thought, all opinions are greatly appreciated

Thanks again,

Jon

 

Awesome Idea!! I will be there!

 

I would never auto-x on any banked surfaces on a course, or where there is a solid object that could be hit 50-75 feet away in a spin... I would also never auto-x where the 'runoff' is grass and solid objects within 100-125 feet.

Sadly, that removes most racetracks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would never auto-x on any banked surfaces on a course, or where there is a solid object that could be hit 50-75 feet away in a spin... I would also never auto-x where the 'runoff' is grass and solid objects within 100-125 feet.

Sadly, that removes most racetracks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So it's a personal feeling that those things are all dangerous?

Thanks,

Jon

 

I mean I'm just trying to understand the "why not"... as one of the best autox sites ever around here (Cloverleaf Mall, RIP) featured all the potentially hazardous things you mention, and the three groups who ran there put on great, huge, full, hilariously fun events...

Thanks,

Jon

 

Airports?

I think what keeps most autox people away from the track is the risk.. I still see the risk being there, even at jefferson..

What about turning the coarse designs into something more open and flowing, almost like a 2nd to 3rd gear autox, and do multipal laps?

 

i think the AutoX on track option is a last option here. It looks like the main point of this is a small track day similar to a 1 day NASA HPDE and time trials so it will be a nice open flowing track.

 

I can't speak to Jon's experience with airports in the area, but VMSC hasn't had much luck with them. NASA did a few Cloverleaf mall events doing multiple laps which were cool, it's just very difficult to get dates at sites around here for ANY event. Virginia Motorsports Park gets booked up in a hurry by much bigger groups, and the lot rental is pretty pricey. The area clubs have lost 3+ sites around here in the past year or 2, with few new prospects on the radar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Airports?

I think what keeps most autox people away from the track is the risk.. I still see the risk being there, even at jefferson..

What about turning the coarse designs into something more open and flowing, almost like a 2nd to 3rd gear autox, and do multipal laps?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey Corey, thanks for the reply. As for airports... we've run down so many dead-end leads on potential autox sites (as has the other group around here) that it's gotten quite frustrating, so much so that we're really looking into JC as an option. (Time to maximize sites we CAN get, not waste a bunch more time finding tons of great sites we CAN'T get, if that makes sense.) We'll do our best to have at least 6 autoXes in '06 at VMP in Dinwiddie, but there are only so many Sundays to go around, and we're already competing for them with other groups, which is unfortunate, because central VA really is down to one usable site again.

I agree, any track event will always have some risk, lower-speed Jefferson Circuit or not. As I stated in my second post... we could run an autocross there (slowed-down as you mention via course design) but it would be sooooo expensive for the amount of seat time people would get... that IMHO it would be very hard to fill. People are used to paying &lt;$30 for an autox, not ~$80... racetrack or not.

I think the one-day laid back HPDE/hyperdrive/TT would be the best way to maximize seat time per dollar... the key being the ability to put 20 cars on track at a time instead of 1 or 2.

So I guess the question is... if you were an autocrosser, not a big time Honda Challenge roadracin' superstar ... you're saying you would not come to an event like this just because it was on a racetrack?

Thanks again for your thoughts, this is exactly the kind of stuff we need to hear-

Jon

 

It might be too far of a drive for some, I used to go up to 1:30 away but that was as far as I would go. Especially driving a 30+ year old car with no a/c.......

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WRXRacer111 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't speak to Jon's experience with airports in the area, but VMSC hasn't had much luck with them. NASA did a few Cloverleaf mall events doing multiple laps which were cool, it's just very difficult to get dates at sites around here for ANY event. Virginia Motorsports Park gets booked up in a hurry by much bigger groups, and the lot rental is pretty pricey. The area clubs have lost 3+ sites around here in the past year or 2, with few new prospects on the radar. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed on all counts. It's bad for NASA and worse for VMSC because they've had the premier autocross program around here for literally decades.

For the record, any Jefferson Circuit event will cost *at least* 3 times as much money to put on... as any local autocross ever did or would.

Welcome to our private hell

Thanks,

Jon

 

This may be very silly or not possible:
Using the paddock of Summit for an autocross course.


Also, I think a few people here got Jefferson confused with Shenadoah.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Andrew240z &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It might be too far of a drive for some, I used to go up to 1:30 away but that was as far as I would go. Especially driving a 30+ year old car with no a/c.......</TD></TR></TABLE>

Definitely a concern, thanks. JC is ~2.5 hours from the heart of our market (Richmond) and that's just far enough to make a one-day event not quite a day trip. So, a hotel the night before adds cost. Although these would be spotlight-marketed so it might not make too much of a difference... these would be the high points of our program for 2006, so maybe it would be enough to convince people to make the journey. I don't know... but I do appreciate the opinion.

Thanks again,

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This may be very silly or not possible:
Using the paddock of Summit for an autocross course.


Also, I think a few people here got Jefferson confused with Shenadoah.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's neither silly nor impossible, merely difficult... the main track's paddock is the only one big enough for an autocross, but it is almost always in use so getting it for a Sunday would be nearly impossible (and would probably cost a lot.)

Furthermore even if it was do-able, we would never want to take any available main course dates away from NASA, as these are meant to be a development of the autocross program, i.e. not intended to compete with the regular HPDE program for dates or staffing or participants or anything else.

The other issues would be entry fees, and travel time. Any autocross at a road course facility will cost a lot more to put on, so then (same problem with JC) we'd be left with high entry fees for an event several hours from the home base for many/most of our participants, that didn't offer the "seat time per dollar" that so many autocrossers expect these days (i.e. $5 per run.)

Thanks,

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also, I think a few people here got Jefferson confused with Shenadoah. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Possibly so... but Jefferson does have a couple of "close wall" areas also. Like any other road course in the world, there's always gonna be that little bit of risk. The whole question is how to convince autocrossers that a journey for an event like this... is totally worth it.

Thanks again,

Jon

 

I think if more Autox'ers would try out a road course they would see how much fun they really are and very worth the trip up there.

 

I wonder if autocrossers would be more interested if we called it a "Time Attack"... and issued a statement for "immediate, full release"... about how participation guaranteed them "internationizzle baller status" ??? Hmmmm

Insert "RJ's mom" joke here,

Jon

 

I'm sure someone will take a swing at me, but I don't see how this is "cheaper" Instead of 2 days for $300ish, its now $160 for one day, half the time. Thats the same dollar per minute, but now instead of going all out, its on almost a "fast autocross" over a longer time.
I like the time trial type idea, but you might as well take the big circuit and cone some chicanes into the straight aways if you're gonna charge that much. Just keep the speeds below some number if thats what you want to do, but to charge the same price for the little track just doesn't seem right to me. For $100 a day to run a smaller track for a time trial type thing seems fair.
The only place you save money is half the gas and less used expendables like brakes and tires. Beyond that, I don't see how its any less expensive.
*ducks and runs for cover*

 

Jon,

I think you are in danger of missing the mark with both target groups by trying to create something in between. For DE'ers, I doubt it would be worth the drive and effort for the limited track time, and I think too many auto-xers would be afraid of the dangers associated with running on a track. My opinion is that a hybrid would fail.


Matt

 

I don't live around there, but an idea like that would be great! I've always done just auto-x because I don't want to do a trackday for all the reasons already listed... I don't think I would even want to race a full 3 hours in one day frankly.

I did get to do a street solo last year... that was a ton of fun. It was invite-only (no beginners b/c of the risks - curbs n such) so we only had ~40 drivers. Each run was about 80 seconds and we got 9-10 runs, and I hit 66-67mph 3 times per run. Lots of shifting, I went 1st-2nd-3rd-2-1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2 each run! It's not ideal that we had to exclude beginners, but that kind of an event is a lot of fun... faster and more seat time than an auto-x but much less wear/tear, cost ($50), or time. Insurance issues have killed street solos though, that one was supposedly the last west of the Mississippi, and this year's event was cancelled due to loss of insurance support.

 

I like the idea of a time attack setup where people could see how they competed against other cars in their class and overall on a permanent circuit that times could be tracked on instead of an ever changing autox cone setup.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boilermaker1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sure someone will take a swing at me, but I don't see how this is "cheaper" Instead of 2 days for $300ish, its now $160 for one day, half the time. Thats the same dollar per minute, but now instead of going all out, its on almost a "fast autocross" over a longer time.
I like the time trial type idea, but you might as well take the big circuit and cone some chicanes into the straight aways if you're gonna charge that much. Just keep the speeds below some number if thats what you want to do, but to charge the same price for the little track just doesn't seem right to me. For $100 a day to run a smaller track for a time trial type thing seems fair.
The only place you save money is half the gas and less used expendables like brakes and tires. Beyond that, I don't see how its any less expensive.
*ducks and runs for cover*</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hahaha no swings from here, they're all very valid points

All I can say is that the track rental fees and insurance continue to go up across the board, while entry fees need to stay reasonable... and this creates greater financial risks for the people signing the checks. Having done the math to figure out where to set the pricing, the event I outlined in my original post wouldn't break even until it was 90% full. That is the unfortunate reality of the situation.

What does a FATT cost these days? Main circuit would cost more, but we could run more cars so the entry fee should be about the same. However, the potential for this to jeopardize the overall number of NASA HPDE/roadrace weekends on the main track is not something we're willing to risk. Therefore, it's gotta be Jefferson... or Shenandoah to a lesser extent. It's all gotta be something special that the track management understands... should NOT specifically apply to NASA's quota of available weekend dates at that facility.


At any rate- thanks for the thoughts, this is EXACTLY the stuff we need to hear, you certainly won't upset me by speaking your mind

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by speedracer33 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you are in danger of missing the mark with both target groups by trying to create something in between. For DE'ers, I doubt it would be worth the drive and effort for the limited track time, and I think too many auto-xers would be afraid of the dangers associated with running on a track. My opinion is that a hybrid would fail.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's our greatest fear. Response so far has been great, but there's a huge difference between saying "I'll be there!" and actually signing up when the time comes.

Keep in mind though, we're only talking about 20 beginners, 60 hyperdrivers, and 10-15 advanced drivers. And there could be plenty of crossover (guy in group 1, friend or family member does a session in group 2 in the same car, etc.) Not a huge number of participants by any means - not many more than we'd see at one of our local autocrosses, which have filled up in advance all season, but they're local... and a lot cheaper...

Thank you for your honest opinion, Matt - I wish I could disagree

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White98LS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't live around there, but an idea like that would be great! I've always done just auto-x because I don't want to do a trackday for all the reasons already listed... I don't think I would even want to race a full 3 hours in one day frankly.

I did get to do a street solo last year... that was a ton of fun. It was invite-only (no beginners b/c of the risks - curbs n such) so we only had ~40 drivers. Each run was about 80 seconds and we got 9-10 runs, and I hit 66-67mph 3 times per run. Lots of shifting, I went 1st-2nd-3rd-2-1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2 each run! It's not ideal that we had to exclude beginners, but that kind of an event is a lot of fun... faster and more seat time than an auto-x but much less wear/tear, cost ($50), or time. Insurance issues have killed street solos though, that one was supposedly the last west of the Mississippi, and this year's event was cancelled due to loss of insurance support.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your description of a "street solo" is pretty much how we run our autocrosses, except we don't exclude beginners. Ours are for ~60 cars total, offering 8-10 runs each, on a ~60 second course as fast as we can safely make it by the commonly accepted (SCCA Solo II-based) guidelines, all for a $30-$50 entry fee. And those have been filling up in advance all year, which is exactly why we thought we'd have a market for this "next step" type of hybrid event.

So if it's not too much to ask... can you move closer to Virginia and come out to these events next year?

Thanks

Jon