LSD for the RSX
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From: Die Thieves, NJ, 07456
Re: LSD for the RSX (Slow EJ8)
Yes as stated before me, the ITR LSD is a direct swap into the US tranny. But don't plan on running anything over 230hp through it. Definately not made for boost. But it is an excellent upgrade for a mild NA Type S.
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From: Die Thieves, NJ, 07456
Re: LSD for the RSX (NCNBPDC5)
It should be fine, like I said don't exceed 230 hp. You should be around there with bolt ons and IPS cams so I would step it up and go with the Quaife. Don't plan on running that much power through the ITR lsd and slicks.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: LSD for the RSX (NJslvrtypes)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJslvrtypes »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It should be fine, like I said don't exceed 230 hp.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not really challenging this comment, but I'm sincerely interested in what experience is behind the comment.
There are many users of DC2 ITR with well over 230 HP, and quite a few H1 and HU Honda Challenge cars are using the OEM B motor Torsen axle.
Is there a significant difference between the manufacture of the K motor Torsen unit that makes it less reliable or not as strong as the B motor Torsen unit through which we've all been pumping so much HP?
I'm not really challenging this comment, but I'm sincerely interested in what experience is behind the comment.
There are many users of DC2 ITR with well over 230 HP, and quite a few H1 and HU Honda Challenge cars are using the OEM B motor Torsen axle.
Is there a significant difference between the manufacture of the K motor Torsen unit that makes it less reliable or not as strong as the B motor Torsen unit through which we've all been pumping so much HP?
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From: Ocala, FL
Re: LSD for the RSX (George Knighton)
Do LSD's even do anything on a FWD? I thought that they did but several mechanics at my work said LSD's don't really do **** on a FWD car except maybe in loose dirt or snow. They said at a road course it wouldn't do anything.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: LSD for the RSX (96 SOHC VTEC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 96 SOHC VTEC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...several mechanics at my work said LSD's don't really do [anything] on a FWD car except maybe in loose dirt or snow. They said at a road course it wouldn't do anything. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The only thing I can think of is that they're thinking you don't have enough torque to break traction on the street. If that's what they're thinking, though, they should drive one of the modern FF cars with about 200# of torque at relatively low speeds.
Once you get into the higher classes in track driving, or racing, you will really appreciate having a Torsen LSD on your Honda or Acura.
There's a section of Summit Point that's an acceleration section up hill (Turns 7, 8, 9 for those who know the track). In the wet, even in the pouring rain, the DC2 ITR will get past very fast cars there, cars that on paper should be quite a bit faster than the ITR.
As you take 7, you start putting your foot down more and more and more until you start feeling the car switching torque from right to left, and you'll feel a very slight grabbing in the steering wheel.
At that point, the car is telling you, "That's enough, right there."
I have no idea how Honda decides to mate the Torsen units to the motors, but they do a very good job of it and it's a huge, deciding advantage over other cars, even those powerful FR cars that have LSD of their own.
The only thing I can think of is that they're thinking you don't have enough torque to break traction on the street. If that's what they're thinking, though, they should drive one of the modern FF cars with about 200# of torque at relatively low speeds.
Once you get into the higher classes in track driving, or racing, you will really appreciate having a Torsen LSD on your Honda or Acura.
There's a section of Summit Point that's an acceleration section up hill (Turns 7, 8, 9 for those who know the track). In the wet, even in the pouring rain, the DC2 ITR will get past very fast cars there, cars that on paper should be quite a bit faster than the ITR.
As you take 7, you start putting your foot down more and more and more until you start feeling the car switching torque from right to left, and you'll feel a very slight grabbing in the steering wheel.
At that point, the car is telling you, "That's enough, right there."
I have no idea how Honda decides to mate the Torsen units to the motors, but they do a very good job of it and it's a huge, deciding advantage over other cars, even those powerful FR cars that have LSD of their own.
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From: Die Thieves, NJ, 07456
Re: LSD for the RSX (George Knighton)
No offense taken on challenging my comment. Heres my experience with the type r lsd.
Edo(IPS) broke his with 230hp on slicks.
BlueRSX03 broke his with 206hp on slicks
EricCarver1 broke his with I/H/E on Azenis.
Now could this be a coincidence, probably not. I was not there to take a look at the LSD and diagnose the problem but I have seen pics. The Type R LSD does not handle high hp like the B series. I can't give you a technical reason because I will never use one nor have I seen a comparison on the B and K series lsd. I do know that for 500 dollars more you get the Quaife with a lifetime warranty against any conditions. Including drag racing and the track. Seems kind of stupid to drop the trans. and go half *** on parts.
Edo(IPS) broke his with 230hp on slicks.
BlueRSX03 broke his with 206hp on slicks
EricCarver1 broke his with I/H/E on Azenis.
Now could this be a coincidence, probably not. I was not there to take a look at the LSD and diagnose the problem but I have seen pics. The Type R LSD does not handle high hp like the B series. I can't give you a technical reason because I will never use one nor have I seen a comparison on the B and K series lsd. I do know that for 500 dollars more you get the Quaife with a lifetime warranty against any conditions. Including drag racing and the track. Seems kind of stupid to drop the trans. and go half *** on parts.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: LSD for the RSX (NJslvrtypes)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJslvrtypes »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Heres my experience with the type r lsd.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow. I guess this is just another example of how different the stress factors are between road racing and drag racing.
Wow. I guess this is just another example of how different the stress factors are between road racing and drag racing.
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From: SICK1NINE, CA
Re: LSD for the RSX (Jon V)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jon V »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the torque of the K series is a whole new ball game for some of us Honda lovers...</TD></TR></TABLE>
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Re: LSD for the RSX (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow. I guess this is just another example of how different the stress factors are between road racing and drag racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
seroiusly
seroiusly
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i did a few quick searches and i couold not find any info comparing B an K series lsd, or any info regarding low torque limits on the dc5 lsd, so now i'm quite curious.
granted the dc5 lsd was not made solely to handle launching, but they most likely considered it during it's design and engeneering.
no offense intended but perhaps those mechanical failures were due in part to install error, it seems that with horsepower numbers that close to stock we would hear of alot more dc5 Rs with broken diffs.
granted the dc5 lsd was not made solely to handle launching, but they most likely considered it during it's design and engeneering.
no offense intended but perhaps those mechanical failures were due in part to install error, it seems that with horsepower numbers that close to stock we would hear of alot more dc5 Rs with broken diffs.
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From: Die Thieves, NJ, 07456
Re: (thad)
Do a search on CRSX for broken DC5 lsd. Those three are the first ones that I find with complete explanations on what broke. As far as install error its hard to believe that the owner of Intrinsic Performance Solutions, a company that has a 315 NA K20A2 does not know how to install an lsd. One or two case could be a install error but multiple ones are around.
All I'm saying is spend the extra couple hundred and get a LIFETIME warranty. Why have to worry about an inferior part with no warranty breaking. I don't work for Quaife nor do I hate JDM(that much), I just speak the truth from years of research.
All I'm saying is spend the extra couple hundred and get a LIFETIME warranty. Why have to worry about an inferior part with no warranty breaking. I don't work for Quaife nor do I hate JDM(that much), I just speak the truth from years of research.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (thad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i did a few quick searches and i couold not find any info comparing B an K series lsd....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, let's put it this way.
I have a DC5 ITR LSD in the kitchen. I contacted the guy who sold it to me to make sure it was the right part because it looked so much like a DC2 ITR LSD that I thought he'd sent me the wrong part.
Except for the placement of the bolt holes, you'd swear it was the same piece.
Well, let's put it this way.
I have a DC5 ITR LSD in the kitchen. I contacted the guy who sold it to me to make sure it was the right part because it looked so much like a DC2 ITR LSD that I thought he'd sent me the wrong part.
Except for the placement of the bolt holes, you'd swear it was the same piece.
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Re: (NJslvrtypes)
from my experience i've learned to trust oem honda parts, i found more often than not aftermarket to be inferior, not to say that oem is always best, or that aftermarket manufacturers can't make product that surpass the performance of stock, but there is a hell of alot more r&d that goes into oem products.
i think it strikes some of us as odd that factory part intended for racing use has so blatantly failed.
i think it strikes some of us as odd that factory part intended for racing use has so blatantly failed.
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From: Siege Perilous
Re: (thad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think it strikes some of us as odd that factory part intended for racing use has so blatantly failed.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, I don't think it was meant for drag racing, and I can think of quite a few people who have raced in Honda Challenge for years with no difficulty with the Honda Torsen axle.
I think that drag racing just puts different stresses on the parts, and that perhaps a different kind of LSD is best for drag racing. Kaaz, maybe?
I remember that waaaaay back in the old days Mercedes in North America couldn't figure out why it was having so many warranty claims for broken drive shafts, broken flex disks and broken axles with its 6.3 litre 109 series car ( http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/a....html ).
It turns out that Americans were taking their "best car in the world at any price" out to the drag strip and breaking parts that Mercedes never considered were going to be used that way.
Well, I don't think it was meant for drag racing, and I can think of quite a few people who have raced in Honda Challenge for years with no difficulty with the Honda Torsen axle.
I think that drag racing just puts different stresses on the parts, and that perhaps a different kind of LSD is best for drag racing. Kaaz, maybe?
I remember that waaaaay back in the old days Mercedes in North America couldn't figure out why it was having so many warranty claims for broken drive shafts, broken flex disks and broken axles with its 6.3 litre 109 series car ( http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/a....html ).
It turns out that Americans were taking their "best car in the world at any price" out to the drag strip and breaking parts that Mercedes never considered were going to be used that way.
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From: Die Thieves, NJ, 07456
Re: (thad)
Well said George, that is exactly it. Honda Motor Corp. did not expect IPS to release cams that puts the Type S to over 215hp to the wheels or St00pid to tune a stock turbo motor to over 515hp and so on. Although they knew that the Honda is a popular car in the tuner market, they never even put the LSD in the US version of the RSX. Perhaps this is the reason. Can you imagine how many warranty claims there would be for broken LSD's.
And as far as oem quality goes, everything has its limits. Although I agree oem quality is usually better, that doesn't apply to everything. Quaife is the definite better product here. There are no hp limits to which its warranty doesn't cover.
So essentially what you are saying Thad, is that Honda developed their pistons and rods with more R+D than Cunningham and Wiseco. No, they are meant for different things. OEM is meant for 200 flywheel hp on a K20A2, anything far past that and say goodbye to your warranty. I would not expect to tow my car into Acura with a hole in the block and say your pistons and rods are ****, your OEM quality sucks. However I will choke Wiseco if a ring fails.
But on the other hand I wouldn't expect to purchase a bodykit from ebay and expect it to fit and match as well as the ASPEC bodykit.
And as far as oem quality goes, everything has its limits. Although I agree oem quality is usually better, that doesn't apply to everything. Quaife is the definite better product here. There are no hp limits to which its warranty doesn't cover.
So essentially what you are saying Thad, is that Honda developed their pistons and rods with more R+D than Cunningham and Wiseco. No, they are meant for different things. OEM is meant for 200 flywheel hp on a K20A2, anything far past that and say goodbye to your warranty. I would not expect to tow my car into Acura with a hole in the block and say your pistons and rods are ****, your OEM quality sucks. However I will choke Wiseco if a ring fails.
But on the other hand I wouldn't expect to purchase a bodykit from ebay and expect it to fit and match as well as the ASPEC bodykit.
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Re: (NJslvrtypes)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJslvrtypes »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So essentially what you are saying Thad, is that Honda developed their pistons and rods with more R+D than Cunningham and Wiseco. No, they are meant for different things. OEM is meant for 200 flywheel hp on a K20A2, anything far past that and say goodbye to your warranty. I would not expect to tow my car into Acura with a hole in the block and say your pistons and rods are ****, your OEM quality sucks. However I will choke Wiseco if a ring fails.
But on the other hand I wouldn't expect to purchase a bodykit from ebay and expect it to fit and match as well as the ASPEC bodykit. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i suppose the beauty of oem quality is that your know everything will work with everything else on the car, introducing an aftermarket part into the equation is a calculated risk, if the AM part is of quality build it will not be the weak link when something has to give, and those oem parts that worked so well together are now at a disadvantage. but to put together a setup that will allow all of it's parts to reach their full potential is a science, and an especially difficult one when you are defying the preconceptions of that cars intention.
So essentially what you are saying Thad, is that Honda developed their pistons and rods with more R+D than Cunningham and Wiseco. No, they are meant for different things. OEM is meant for 200 flywheel hp on a K20A2, anything far past that and say goodbye to your warranty. I would not expect to tow my car into Acura with a hole in the block and say your pistons and rods are ****, your OEM quality sucks. However I will choke Wiseco if a ring fails.
But on the other hand I wouldn't expect to purchase a bodykit from ebay and expect it to fit and match as well as the ASPEC bodykit. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i suppose the beauty of oem quality is that your know everything will work with everything else on the car, introducing an aftermarket part into the equation is a calculated risk, if the AM part is of quality build it will not be the weak link when something has to give, and those oem parts that worked so well together are now at a disadvantage. but to put together a setup that will allow all of it's parts to reach their full potential is a science, and an especially difficult one when you are defying the preconceptions of that cars intention.
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Re: (thad)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thad »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to put together a setup that will allow all of it's parts to reach their full potential is a science, and an especially difficult one when you are defying the preconceptions of that cars intention.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats definetly quote worthy...
thats definetly quote worthy...
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From: Washington, DC, USA
Re: LSD for the RSX (George Knighton)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Once you get into the higher classes in track driving, or racing, you will really appreciate having a Torsen LSD on your Honda or Acura.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would LOVE to have had an LSD of some kind even on the autocross course. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't my clutch slipping as I came out of the first low-speed corner.
I would LOVE to have had an LSD of some kind even on the autocross course. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't my clutch slipping as I came out of the first low-speed corner.