I was wondering if using the suspension techniques rear sway bar on my stock ek hatch will cause subframe tearout? I know that the higher the spring rating the less lakely the tearout but Im using some pretty soft h&rs right now. Any thoughts?

 

yeah the st setup tore my entire rear subframe out of my 97 ek..Best part is when I called suspension techniques and they told me it is "for off road use only"

 

are you serious geez Im scared now. What did you ultimately do? Did you have any sort of reinforcement? I should not have torn out regardless of road use.

 

ASR Subframe brace.

http://www.passwordjdm.com just started carrying them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM_Ej &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ASR Subframe brace.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Or Comptech adjustable sway / tie combo.

 

Get stiffer rear springs.

 

will really stiff springs lower the chance of tearout?


Modified by cbmprelude at 5:55 AM 10/23/2005

 

Do you actually want to risk it?
dont be cheap just buy a kit or have one made

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cbmprelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">will really stiff springs lower the chance of tearout?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you run the right spring you don't need a sway bar at all. You run a harder spring then you don't need to run as thick of sway bar. To get a soft spring to perform you need a thicker sway.

A sway bar is a tuning device used mainly for 2 reasons. One is to give street cars a more comfortable ride while still being able to perform in corners. Two is to do suspension tweaks for the track. You have 600lb springs but feel 620 would work better you add a slight bit of sway bar to get that effect especialy if you don't have a 620lb spring or time to chang eit.

What I seem to see people doing on this board is adding soft springs then throwing on the thickest sway bar they can find. If 16 is good 22mm must be even better-seems to be the general thinking.

 

great info

 

the problem with sway bars is they link your wheel to the other side so if you hit a pot hole on the left side, It applies the same movement pressure on the right side. Bigger isnt always better but its good for tuning under and oversteer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by low430 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the problem with sway bars is they link your wheel to the other side so if you hit a pot hole on the left side, It applies the same movement pressure on the right side. Bigger isnt always better but its good for tuning under and oversteer.</TD></TR></TABLE>or should i say... when you run over a pot hole with your right side tire, your left side tire is still making contact to the ground--&gt; therefore the sway bar helps to hold the right side tire up, making it sort of fly over it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gsrious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">or should i say... when you run over a pot hole with your right side tire, your left side tire is still making contact to the ground--&gt; therefore the sway bar helps to hold the right side tire up, making it sort of fly over it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
NO!! the ARB will not hold the freaking wheel out of a pot hole. The spring is pushing down on that wheel much harder than the ARB is pushing up. C'mon man.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cbmprelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">will really stiff springs lower the chance of tearout?


Modified by cbmprelude at 5:55 AM 10/23/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yea because the springs will be doing the work of conrtolling the body and the bar wont be putting so much stress on the mounts. To elaborate imagine 100 LBS springs. the ARB will be fighting body roll like a mother ******. But is you put 1000 LBS springs on the ARB really isnt doing ****. Considering we have some shity stock ARB and only switch springs. Just think the perecntage of your roll stiffness that the ARB is responsible for.

 

If a fat sway bar is not matched with appropriate spring rates and shocks, something is going to break. And it sure isn't ST's fault.

I had ST bars on my 98' EK for 6 years, installed with nothing but the hardware provided with the kit. But, I also had appropriate spring rates and adj. shocks. After 6 seasons of 15-20 autox events per season, all on Hoosiers (incl. some really sticky places like natz at forbes field), there was no sign of an impending tear out, or even any undue stress on the mounting location.

I would definitely buy ST products again. In fact I already have for my new EG project (the EK was stolen). And I'll install them using the provided brackets and washers.

 

Same here I have the ST bars front and back for over 4 years now and no issues of the rear subframe tearing out.

Here's the thing with the EK subframe compared to the EG/DC subframes. the placement of the mounting points for the lower control arms is in a inward position of the subframe compared to the EG/DC subframe which has a outward position of the subframe.

Hence that is one of the reason the lower control arms of the EKs are longer the the EG/DC arms. Also this is one of the reasons for EKs to have their subframe rip away more easier then the EG/DC subframe(It's a weak mounting point for big sway bars). The EKs subframe walls are very thin to begin with, then you add a beefy sway bar: 22+ mm bars, you are asking for trouble. I've personally seen EKs with the beaks kit break off the subframe with the beaks kit still attached to parts of the subframe. The best way to avoid all this either don't use a big rear sway bar or use the subframe plate like:

ASR subframe kit, Competech sway bar combo, or Eibachs type. Also ST also sells a competition sway bar/ reinforcement subframe plate combo too.

I personal have the ASR subframe plate w/ ST sway bar and it makes a night and day difference on the rear end of my car. BTW w/o the subframe I didn't have any issues of subframe cracking or tearing on me. I bought the ASR to control the flex of the body on my car. Cheaper then buying a roll cage and more practical too.

Just my opinions, take it for what it's worth.

 

ok let me get this straight because i am about to buy the st bar for my 98 hatch...so the ASR plate can be used with the st bar? LORD HELMET can you please explain to a newbie of how you put on your rear sway cuz i noticed that i am supposed to drill a hole in the subframe but then where does the ASR plate go and isnt the ASR plate kinda thick to put the sway on after wards?
sorry i just got scared for a minute and want to know from ppl with more experience. dont mean to jack threads or nothing because i wasjust one click away from buying the st bars off of jegs rite now. thanks for any info.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you run the right spring you don't need a sway bar at all. You run a harder spring then you don't need to run as thick of sway bar. To get a soft spring to perform you need a thicker sway.

A sway bar is a tuning device used mainly for 2 reasons. One is to give street cars a more comfortable ride while still being able to perform in corners. Two is to do suspension tweaks for the track. You have 600lb springs but feel 620 would work better you add a slight bit of sway bar to get that effect especialy if you don't have a 620lb spring or time to chang eit.

What I seem to see people doing on this board is adding soft springs then throwing on the thickest sway bar they can find. If 16 is good 22mm must be even better-seems to be the general thinking. </TD></TR></TABLE>


I'm wondering why a lot of national level autoxers and road racers use rear swaybars then...

Even Realtime Racing runs &gt;1200lb rear spring AND a big fatty rear swaybar.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm wondering why a lot of national level autoxers and road racers use rear swaybars then...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

To tune the suspension. A swaybar should be used to set up the handling of the car; not to make up for lack of springrate.

 

You know races are not all run on glass smooth tracks. Some of them are a little rought and the rear spring rates required to attain the desired roll stiffness would be to much for such a track. So to keep the car on the ground and not bouncing off every bump the use an ARB to help out with a little softer springs. Look at open wheel racers............NO ARB. What AutoXer said is correct the ARB fine tunes the suspension after the CORRECT spring rates have been chosen.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Look at open wheel racers............NO ARB.</TD></TR></TABLE>

huh? what open wheel racers aren't running ARBs???

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm wondering why a lot of national level autoxers and road racers use rear swaybars then...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You know races are not all run on glass smooth tracks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's an important point.

The other is that we're talking about suspensions here. One man's "perfect" setup is another man's nightmare. Suspension tuning is nothing but compromise. And for nearly every opinion, there's an equally informed opposing opinion.

Personally, I like the way swaybars feel. Doesn't matter what my spring rates are. Bars create a different feel to the suspension. I even like a front swaybar, but I'm experimenting without one on my current project so I can get the oversteer I want with lower rear rates... because no track is ever "glass smooth". Then again, I'm looking at the Kumho V710's now. Their sidewalls are more flexible than Hoosiers so they may not cooperate with lower rates. Or my less than steller driving abilities may not be able to handle the new setup. Compromise.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

huh? what open wheel racers aren't running ARBs??? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I cant say i have ever seen it in person but i am quite sure that F1 cars and indy cars do not run an ANTI ROLL BAR aka ARB. when you school your self up on slick suspension terminology then it will all make sense.

 

f1 cars dont even have coil springs. so dont even try to compare an open wheel car to a production car.

having stiffer springs makes the swaybar have to work less.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you run the right spring you don't need a sway bar at all. You run a harder spring then you don't need to run as thick of sway bar. </TD></TR></TABLE>

thats simply not true.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohjolt2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I cant say i have ever seen it in person but i am quite sure that F1 cars and indy cars do not run an ANTI ROLL BAR aka ARB. when you school your self up on slick suspension terminology then it will all make sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>

WTF are you talking about .... ARB is a slick suspension term? LOL

Here go to school:

What does #3 say?
http://www.indycar.com/tech/

Champ Car:
http://www.lola-group.com/med/...8.pdf

Star Mazda:
http://www.starmazda.com/cars.htm

Toyota Atlantic:
http://www.swiftengineering.co...s.htm

A1 GP:
http://www.lola-group.com/med/...8.pdf

Formula Nippon:
http://www.lola-group.com/med/...3.pdf

Formula 3:
http://www.lola-group.com/med/...5.pdf


I could go on and on .....