Here is the scenerio. Let's say you are approaching a 3rd gear corner at the top of fifth. During a single heel and toe downshift I would of course rengage the clutch after the next lower gear was selected. My question is when going from 5th to 3rd (or any other similar multiple downshift), do I need to release the clutch pedal in 4th gear just to press it again for my blip shift to third. Going to 4th to me is just kind of a rythm gear to let me know how long I have been braking. Since it is not the needed acceleration gear isn't it ok to keep the clutch to the floor. Thanks.

 

I skip'em on the way down.

Warren

 

As in skip the whole gear intirely?

I like to go through each gear to kind of give me an idea of braking time and speed. Let's me slow down so I don't throw it in 3rd to soon I guess. Also makes sure I don't have trouble finding the gear.

 

do you really need to heel-toe shift on a Honda?

I was under the assumption that since we have synchronized transmissions, there was no need for this.

I am still learning. It would be great if someone informed me.

thanks in advance,

drive safe,

aj

 

The reason you need to rev match on any car is so you don't upset your balance going into a corner. Dropping it in a lower gear without rev matching can cause the front tires to lock up in some occasions.

Double clutching is probably what you are thinking of. Basically the same thing but with an extra step not really needed in syncro equipped cars.

 

AJN, i think youre talking about double clutching. Which is not really necessary as you stated. Heel-toe is for downshifting on coming upon a turn. To get your car in the ideal gear and slowing down for the turn.

 

double clutching. That's what I was thinking of. I am starting to read up on the heel-toe shifting chapter in Skip Barber's: Going Faster. It's a great book.

that heel toe stuff looks really confusing. Well, practice makes perfect. And I probably won't need it until I start to really hit the track a lot.

thanks for the help guys.

drive safe,

aj

 

Hell yea it is!

For what it's worth, I let the clutch out for the intermediate gear. It's cumbersome sometimes, but that's what practice is for.

 

Yeah, me too. I know you don't need to. But I go through all the gears down and clutch between each.

Except for turn 5 at Summit. I 4th to 2nd there. COme to think of it I always skip 3rd from 4 to 2. Like Oak tree at VIR. Hmmmmm.

Now from 5 to 3 or 5 to 2. Get them all for some reason...

Chris

 

AA - Not necessary, but you'll find different answers depending on who you ask. For me, it depends on the situation and if I'm actually going to *use* the gear. If I'm not going to use it, then I don't let the clutch out, though I do usually move through the gears in an attempt to avoid mis-shifting.

ajn - Start practicing before you go to the track. Your instructor won't want your forst attempt to be in the braking zone going into Turn 1.

ITR231 - It does make for practice, but you are wearing your clutch more than necessary. You'll probably eventually stop doing the mid-shift ones when the gear isn't needed.


[Modified by r2x, 10:25 PM 3/4/2002]

 

In the "I'm in 5th and will soon need to be in 3rd" situation you have described, the *ideal* thing to do is wait until the right before turn-in, and do a 5-3 downshift. Some people just go 5-4-3 in this situation out of habit, and there's nothing technically wrong with that *if* you can do the following...

1. Maintain your line
2. Maintain your concentration
3. Maintain your braking (something a lot of people new to heel-toe don't do well)

Going 5-4-3 is, IMO, extra work. And I've had students who have done this and I've told them to stop it. Just be careful not to zing the engine! If you habitually go 5-4-3 and decideto go into 3rd where you usually go into 4th...yuck.

Someone in this thread asked if you *need* to heel-toe a FWD car, and I think the answer is "no, but...." Guys like Catch22, o-man and the rarely-seen DTAYLOR are wicked fast without it. That said...I contend that it is a valuable tool to have in your toolbox. I've ridden with these people and I always find myself thinking that they're working awfully hard. Once you're really good at heel-toe - as in, it's a habit you have to force yourself to NOT do - you'll find that it smooths out your driving substantially. Smooth = easy...and easy = fast.

Just my 0.02...


[Modified by krshultz, 11:03 PM 3/4/2002]

 

Perhaps, but the better I get, the less it hurts the clutch. In the meantime, everything is sloppy

 

I remeber going from 3rd to 1st in a F-Dodge; I liked it better than going 3-2-1, but you had to get used to the comparitvely massive throttle blip you had to use, and the potential for mismatching revs was higher. Like the others say, practice is the key.

 

More $.02....I do the 5-4-3 method. I've done both and feel more in control and smoother if I catch each gear, even if only for a 1/2 second. If I'm in sort of a panic about being late on the brakes, I'll usually go 5-3 and get some lock. Heel-toe is completely habit now. I can't see not doing it.

 

when you guys heel-toe, do you actually use your toe on the brake and your heel to blip the throttle? i find that using the ball of my foot (or the left side) on the brake and rolling my foot to the right (using the right side of my foot) to blip the throttle is easier. it's almost become natural to me now. i find myself doing it all the time just driving around town. it just seems to me that my leg doesn't bend that way so that my toe is on the brake and heel on the gas.

 

agreed. to do this means you need to start downshifting sooner under braking. i don't know about you but i want to do as little as possible while under heavy braking.

 

On using the ball of your foot on both pedals:

Can't say I'm good, or smooth, at it, but this is what I do to. My size 13-E feet have a hard time "heel-toe"-ing in the GSR footspace.

However, on double-clutching, I have gotten in the habit of doing this, and I find it has smoothed my overall driving. Not to mention the synchros love it -- a properly double-clutched gearshift practically sucks the lever into the proper notch!

Edit: Clarifying the subject


[Modified by allenp, 4:45 PM 3/5/2002]