I think this is my first post her at HT. I live in Sweden and i drive a 90 civic hb with a d16zc swap and its running perfectly fine on ethanol for about 5 months now and it is my daily driver. Anyway i just made a search on ethanol here and found some interesting things. It seems like ethanol just started to get interesting in the US so i thought i could share some of my knowledge and experiences when it comes to ethanol.

First off i would like to know how many of you are running on 100% on ethanol.

As some of you know ethanol has some big advantage and one of them it that it has a higher octane number. I am not sure what kind of ethanol you can get i the US. Here in sweden we have E85 that is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. In brazil they also have E95 i think and that is 95% ethanol and 5% water. The octane number of E85 is about 104(RON), 94(MON), 99(PON). Not quite sure what octane number gas stations in the US use. Anyway as you understand this has some advantages especially to you guys running high compression or boosting. Since the higher octane number you can run higher compresssion or more boost without knocking. Just look at saabs new ethanol powerd car that makes 30hp more with ethanol since they can turn up the boost. It also has another advantage and that is that its combustion temperature is about 200 degrees celcius lower. Also, when taking apart an engine that has been running on ethanol you will notice how clean it is inside, it cleans the engine out and does not leave any charcoal deposits.

So there are many myths about ethanol. Most of these are not true. The largest one is probably that it is corrosive to aluminum and this is not true. Worries about hoses and seals is also a myth. I have been checking charts from companies that manufacture hoses and they show that ethanol is less agressive to most plastic and rubber materials. There are people here in Sweden that have been running their cars on ethanol for about seven years without any problems with aluminum fuelrails och plastic and rubber hoses and seals.

So where does ethanol come from. It can be made from many different things such as corn, wheat, lumber, papermass and so on. Im not gonna describe the whole progress of producing ethanol. There is another advantage that i guess is really the biggest advantage. Ethanol is much better for the environment then regular gas. Running your car on E85 reduces the emission of carbondioxide by about 80% if you compare to gas. Running on only ethanol it does not contribute to the greenhouse effect at all.

Ok so now on to the fun parts. You guys hopefully wonder how you can convert your own honda to run on ethanol. Now it comes to some complicated stuff that is kind of hard for me to explain in english but i will try. If you compare the density of E85 and regular gas you will find out that you have to have about 40% more ethanol to create the same abount of energy. You know that when you run on gas to get a full combustion(is this right?) you have to have a A/F ratio of 14.7:1 right? When it comes to ethanol you want to have it at 9:1 and for E85 9.8:1. This is the 40% difference in density. I know if you divide 9,8/14,7 you get about 66% which would mean about 33% more E85 than gas. This is technically not true but in reality this is is how much you fuel consumption will increase.

So to be able to run on ethanol you have to get about 30% more fuel through your injecors to run ok. As you understand you can do this in many ways. You can get your stand alone system or get it tuned with a chip at the dyno. But this is kind of expensive. Other alternatives are using larger injectors and controlling these with an apexi or turboedit, uberdata you name it. The easiest and cheapest way is to get a fuel pressure regulator and increase your fuel pressure to get the extra 30%. Im running with stock fuel pump and im fine but im not sure if all pumps are ok.

So what have you learned about ethanol today! Well we love ethanol, right? You can get more power out of your boosted or high compression car. Even if you just have some bolt ons you can take advantage of this since you can turn advance your ignition alot. Anyway, we have learned that you need about 30% more E85 in you motor to run right. We also know that it is good for the environment. So i hope that you have enjoyed reading this and im more than happy to answer any question.


Modified by rodtotten at 8:51 PM 9/22/2005

 

I havent seen any gas stations here that sell ethanol, and buying barrels of it and keeping them in my garage doesnt really appeal to me. Do you know how much a 50 gallon drum of it costs here anyway?? I dont, Im just asking, but it sounds expensive.
Off topic: I heard gas prices are going to go up even more this time in the Southeast cause the hurricane is going to hit Texas. Shitty

 

i have no ide how much it could cost. but check this site out and you might be able find some in your area.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afd....html

 

What's the difference in MPG? 30% less? Or because you engine is running cleaner/cooler does it even out?
Besides fuel pressure, what other changes would you have to make?

 

How did you tune it by just adjusting fuel pressure? Did you guess or did you tune it with a wideband?

I am very interested in ethanol but its not very popular in the US unfortunately. Hopefully it will become more common after this current oil situation.

 

Your MPG will be 30% less since you have to put more fuel into your engine. I tuned mine with just an A/F gauge but ofcourse you should get it tuned with a wideband or at the dyno. When tuning my car i set the fuel pressure at 4bars at idle without the vaccum hose attached and then i fine tuned with my apexi s-afc. But you can run nice with just adjusting the fuel pressure.

There is actually shown that some cars are able to run on ethanol without doing anything. This is because the ecu is able to compensate for the lean mixture. With most cars you are able to mix in about 30% ethanol without noticing anything. I was running about 40% before i noticed any difference.

When tuning you have to understand what your A/F gauge or wideband is really reading. As you know a o2 sensor is comparing the amount of oxygen in the exhaust and the amount of oxygen in the air outside the car. So when your wideband shows you your A/F ratio is 14.7 it is really showing 9.68 since you are running on ethanol. So lets say that you tune you na car for an A/F ratio of 13.5 that is what your wideband will show but in reallity your A/F ratio is about 8.8:1. Kind of hard to explain even in swedish. Anyway the point is you what your wideband to show the same when you car is running on ethanol as when you where running on regular gas.

Well you guys that live up north will expreience some problems with starting you cars during the winter since ethanol is harder to evaporate. So when it is cold it will take a few times before the car starts. This can be eliminated by preheating the fuel before it enters the engine. For example heating the fuel rail with you coolantwater a good temperature is about 40 degrees celsius. Preheating you fuel will not only help you start better it will also increase your MPG. Some studies show that it can increase as much as 11%.

 

so basically all it takes is tuning to convert? This would be a sweet project, but i have few questions.

How is the actual gas mileage affected? Would i get 30% less miles per tank/gallon?
What's the cost difference?

I'd love to do this in a daily beater or something, but if gas costs less, i'll have to stick with gas.

 

E85 around here is about $.50 more than regular gas, so with the increased expense and less fuel mileage, its not selling very well.

 

thanks ... helpful post !!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicross &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">E85 around here is about $.50 more than regular gas, so with the increased expense and less fuel mileage, its not selling very well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

probably cheaper in Europe

 

I live in Iowa and currently E85 is 1.66 a gallon way cheaper then gas prices since 89 is currently at 2.50

 

Well we have an ethanol plant in Nebraska...sooo...You'd think it would be cheaper here?

 

Ethanol There was just an ethanol plant that opened up is Garnet kansas a couple days ago that now sells E85. The local casey's fuel station in my town sells E10.

 

I wonder if E85 is legal in Honda Challenge???


I am going to ask chad....or maybe .RJ can chime in

 

damn, georgia only has one e85 station and its closed to the public... ghey. how does power production and knock resistance compare to straight gasoline? what about afr's?

 

Well if you read through the thread again you will see that i tried to explain those parts. Since ethanol has a higher octane number it has a higher knocking resistance. And because of this you can add boost or increase compression to your engine and you will make more power. You will need more fuel to you engine and an A/F ratio of 9.68:1.

Anyway her i sweden 1liter cost about 12 swedish crowns and ethanol is about 7-8 crowns. So considering the 30% less mpg you get it is cheaper to run ethanol here in Sweden. So in gallons and dollars that would be about $5.84 for a gallon of gas and $3.65 for a gallon of ethanol. The gas is so expensive since half the price is taxes.

 

I thought this was a great write up, very informative. Thanks.

 

very intriging....but most of us that know anything about fuel and these set ups know...that you have more fuel w/meth and eth...althought they say eth is way less corrosive.....so let's say on reg gas your car gets 25 mpg.but on the eth it gets say 32 mpg...but it takes a little more than a gallon....and the cost you say is cheaper.some one said on here they could get it for 1.66...that right there would have already sold me if that price is true.


alot of these people think that these pro racer's are running lo compression on meth and eth...you would be surprized at how high they really are.i was surprized.how do you think those big *** turbo's that can blow away a small town spool instantly off the line.here is a fine example "diesel trucks" 34:0:1 i think at least i think for diesel to ignite add a hellified stroke and bore....and what do you get a 102mm comp wheel turbo spooling at 2k rpm.


it is just everyone is afraid to run the eth....because it is not readily available.but think about this for a minute..around town a tank of gas would last you dam near all week....road trips...well you can fill up and save the first 60 bucks but then it is wallet digging time.


as far as adjusting fuel pressure goes i would say around 65-70 on a stock motor w/stock inj....now w/bigger injectors...it would be a different story.


harv


very good post tho? congrats....lets here some more idea's from anyone...hell the way gas is right now.WE ARE WORKING JUST TO GET TO WORK.

 

Rodtotten -- good for you. I'm currently converting my Isuzu Trooper to diesel to take advantage of biodiesel and vegetable oil as fuels.

I have also been considering taking on a project similar to yours for a while once I'm finished with the truck and my Integra. The station 2 blocks from me sells E85, generally about $1 cheaper than regular unleaded IIRC.

Do you know how Ford and Chrysler flex-fuel vehicles manage the mixing of fuels in the tank? As I understand it, you can fill up with E85 or regular unleaded, and they are allowed to mix. Floats in-tank to gauge specific gravity and send data to the ECU? I'd like to be able to mix ethanol with gas in any ratio (one of the reasons biodiesel is attractive is it allows for this without modifying anything).

 

very informative

is there a database that shows where ethanol is sold

 

gotboostedvr6: yes right here as posted earlier in the thread:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afd....html

acy76: i dont know how that system works but i belive you gave a good explanation to it. So out of quriosity i just emailed volvo and asked how their system works in their new v50 and v40.

so anyone else driving their honda on ethanol?

 

yea i missed that thanks

 

I was just reading about Ethanol yesterday. The cool thing with this stuff is that you can MAKE it. Here is a link to a site that explains a lot about conversions and how to make ethanol really easily with a still. http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html I'm really excited about converting our daily drivers (94' Accord EX, and 95' Accord LX V6). Theoretically you are supposed to have a permit from ATF to own a still. I'd like to find out if someone makes an aftermarket computer chip that will adjust the fuel injection to allow for E85 or even E100. I'll stop buying gasoline and start making "White Lightning"!

 

every single one in ga is private.. either ga power or government... nearest one is greenville.. an hour drive for ethanol.. not worth it, lol

 

The closest Ethanol station to me is 275 miles away. Id love to convert but the lack of availability is preventing me.