stage 2 cams for h23
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
stage 2 cams for h23
what cams would you guys suggest for my h23, i want to stay with it and build it up, will i need new valvetrain and junk also......is it hard to put new cams on with out pullin the block, also, what tools will i need to do this besides the obvious, wrenches, torque wrench and junk
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,732
Likes: 2
From: Betonwüsten, USA
Re: stage 2 cams for h23 (Jordans95si)
If you do not intend to tune it then stick with stock or stage 1. Stage 2 will require you to upgrade your valvetrain. If you have no experience then swapping cams without a helms manual then find someone that knows how to. If you get the timing off you can fubar your motor.
Pirate
Pirate
Trending Topics
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,768
Likes: 1
From: Flowery Branch, Ga
IIRC, the stage II's require the valvetrain upgrade, so if you get the upgrade you might as well go with the bigger cams, IMO.
That way you can upgrade later, and not have the cams acting as a bottleneck.
That way you can upgrade later, and not have the cams acting as a bottleneck.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,732
Likes: 2
From: Betonwüsten, USA
Re: (N)
People with no money build natually aspirated H23's. People with money go with a H22 and build that. It is typically easier and cheaper to swap a H22 head on the H23 and rev to 8K and get more power, especially without tuning like so many people with no money like to do.
Speaking of which, people with no money also do a half assed job of tuning the new setup if they try to tune at all. When people without money don't tune they do not get full potential out of their car, which leads them to say, "this sucks, I could have swapped an H22 head on this and got more." and they go do that instead.
Another problem is that all H23s are nine years or older and have a hell of a lot of miles on them. The amount of money required to rebuild them is more than what it takes for a JDM H22 swap. So people swap it out instead of buying a camshaft upgrade for their H23.
Another benefit of the H22/H23VTEC is that you can run a truely agressive VTEC cam lobe on 10.6:1 compression and still pass emissions on the low cam. With H23s if you change over to a more agressive profile then you lose "streetability" and will not pass emissions especially if you are a person without money and do not tune the cams. You will run rich on the low end and lean up top where it makes power.
So no, there are no people out there with dyno of Crower stage 2 camshafts because people without money will not take the necessary steps to buy them, install them or tune them, and people with money will go with a different engine.
If you want to know what they do then you can look at SUB-0 H23's dyno of Crower stage 1s and my dyno of stage 3s and try to decide for yourself if the stage 2s will fall somewhere in between. If you think that power inbetween 160whp and 180whp will be adequate for you then go ahead and buy the Crower stage 2s and install them, tune them, and then post your results so that we can see, "what kinda power these ******* bump sticks make."
You got to pay to play.
Pirate
Speaking of which, people with no money also do a half assed job of tuning the new setup if they try to tune at all. When people without money don't tune they do not get full potential out of their car, which leads them to say, "this sucks, I could have swapped an H22 head on this and got more." and they go do that instead.
Another problem is that all H23s are nine years or older and have a hell of a lot of miles on them. The amount of money required to rebuild them is more than what it takes for a JDM H22 swap. So people swap it out instead of buying a camshaft upgrade for their H23.
Another benefit of the H22/H23VTEC is that you can run a truely agressive VTEC cam lobe on 10.6:1 compression and still pass emissions on the low cam. With H23s if you change over to a more agressive profile then you lose "streetability" and will not pass emissions especially if you are a person without money and do not tune the cams. You will run rich on the low end and lean up top where it makes power.
So no, there are no people out there with dyno of Crower stage 2 camshafts because people without money will not take the necessary steps to buy them, install them or tune them, and people with money will go with a different engine.
If you want to know what they do then you can look at SUB-0 H23's dyno of Crower stage 1s and my dyno of stage 3s and try to decide for yourself if the stage 2s will fall somewhere in between. If you think that power inbetween 160whp and 180whp will be adequate for you then go ahead and buy the Crower stage 2s and install them, tune them, and then post your results so that we can see, "what kinda power these ******* bump sticks make."
You got to pay to play.
Pirate
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Re: (PirateMcFred)
well i'd probably fall under the people with no money part , only because i'm 17 and only have a part time job.....but i'm not gonna get in a pissing match, im open for criticism and i was wondering which you'd suggest....h23 vtec, or just swap to h22????
have a nice day
Jordan
, only because i'm 17 and only have a part time job.....but i'm not gonna get in a pissing match, im open for criticism and i was wondering which you'd suggest....h23 vtec, or just swap to h22????have a nice day
Jordan
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,732
Likes: 2
From: Betonwüsten, USA
Re: (Jordans95si)
I was not implying that you were insolvent or whatever. I understand that there are only about 3 people on H-T that have a lot of money to burn. I was speaking in generalities. "N" is relying upon the H-T community to show him results on Crower st. 2 cams. I think that if he is truely interested in results he will have to purchase them as there is a very small number of people that will try to build their H23A1 nonVTEC. I "built" mine becasue I was interested in an inexpensive, unique engine and I believe that I have done that.
With any cam selection you will benefit from more compression. The bigger the cams the more static compression you need to make up for the loss of dynamic compression. If you only want a little more power then go with a stage 1 cam. If you want more, perhaps enough to give the H22s a run for their money then I suggest at least a stage 2 cam with more compression and tuning. Milling the H23A1 cylinder head .030" will bump compression to about 10.5:1 and your torque/horsepower will benefit from the bump.
If you only swapped in some usdm H22A1 pistons into your H23A1 it'll give you close to 11.5:1 compression. 11.5 is very streetable if you intend to tune the engine. If you do tune then you should get good results from stage 1s or 2s. If you have a good tuner that is willing to take the time and effort you can run stage 3s on the street effectively. If you go with a stage 3 you will lose some streetability and you won't pass emissions but IMO it is not that bad. I idle at about 900 rpm and it has good power from 2000 all the way to about 6,700 RPM. I figure that is about the same as stock in terms of streetabiity.
With stage 1 Crower cams you do not have to upgrade your springs or retainers. With stage 2 and up you do.
Pirate
With any cam selection you will benefit from more compression. The bigger the cams the more static compression you need to make up for the loss of dynamic compression. If you only want a little more power then go with a stage 1 cam. If you want more, perhaps enough to give the H22s a run for their money then I suggest at least a stage 2 cam with more compression and tuning. Milling the H23A1 cylinder head .030" will bump compression to about 10.5:1 and your torque/horsepower will benefit from the bump.
If you only swapped in some usdm H22A1 pistons into your H23A1 it'll give you close to 11.5:1 compression. 11.5 is very streetable if you intend to tune the engine. If you do tune then you should get good results from stage 1s or 2s. If you have a good tuner that is willing to take the time and effort you can run stage 3s on the street effectively. If you go with a stage 3 you will lose some streetability and you won't pass emissions but IMO it is not that bad. I idle at about 900 rpm and it has good power from 2000 all the way to about 6,700 RPM. I figure that is about the same as stock in terms of streetabiity.
With stage 1 Crower cams you do not have to upgrade your springs or retainers. With stage 2 and up you do.
Pirate
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 634
Likes: 0
Re: (PirateMcFred)
thanks for your help, im kinda new to all this, but im learning along the way and i have a garage that my friend will let me use...with pretty much any tool i would need for basic work....but by all means i intend to build it up right if i do build it up...i'd get it tuned pretty well, the only problem is i live in iowa so idk if i can find a tuner........
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: GP
no means to thread jack your thread here jordans but i have a few questions to ask pirate since your probably the most knoledgeable person on the fourm about h23s.
on the other side of high compression, i want to boost my h23 and dont really understand the numbers for cam grinds but how do the ideal cams differ from a motor that you want to build for n/a and a motor built for turbo. i might be on the poor side but i want to do this motor right and not go a cheap way what so ever.
just got the motor, dont know what size turbo or boost im going for but the motor is going to be a complete rebuild, doing it peice by peice so i have a lot of time in between parts to do as much research as i can and see whats my best option. just wanted some feedback from you
on the other side of high compression, i want to boost my h23 and dont really understand the numbers for cam grinds but how do the ideal cams differ from a motor that you want to build for n/a and a motor built for turbo. i might be on the poor side but i want to do this motor right and not go a cheap way what so ever.
just got the motor, dont know what size turbo or boost im going for but the motor is going to be a complete rebuild, doing it peice by peice so i have a lot of time in between parts to do as much research as i can and see whats my best option. just wanted some feedback from you
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: GP
Re: (thresher)
just looked at the crower site and i guess they have stage 2 cams specifically for turbo
Stage 2 - Forced Induction
Designed specifically for turbo or supercharger applications.
Low duration, high lift profile.
Requires Crower spring kit #84177.
RPM Range: Idle to 8000+
Advertised Duration
intake-245
exhaust-245
Duration @ .050''
intake-193
exhaust-193
Gross Lift w/ 1.85
intake-440
exhaust-440
yeah it speaks about how it is specifically for turbo but is this the best way to go
Stage 2 - Forced Induction
Designed specifically for turbo or supercharger applications.
Low duration, high lift profile.
Requires Crower spring kit #84177.
RPM Range: Idle to 8000+
Advertised Duration
intake-245
exhaust-245
Duration @ .050''
intake-193
exhaust-193
Gross Lift w/ 1.85
intake-440
exhaust-440
yeah it speaks about how it is specifically for turbo but is this the best way to go
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Boucherville, Qc, Canada
Re: (Jordans95si)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jordans95si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">stage 2's, and valvetrain upgrade, but do i need to tune it? i know i prolly should but can i wait until i get on a dyno and still drive it, or will it jank it all up?</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you don't do the valvetrain upgrade you could blow the engine - the cams are too agressive and your valvetrain won't be able to keep up with the lift / duration of the cams... bam you've got valve float and your engine is finished. Like the other guy said - go big or go home !!
If you don't do the valvetrain upgrade you could blow the engine - the cams are too agressive and your valvetrain won't be able to keep up with the lift / duration of the cams... bam you've got valve float and your engine is finished. Like the other guy said - go big or go home !!
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
From: Boucherville, Qc, Canada
Re: (thresher)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thresher »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just looked at the crower site and i guess they have stage 2 cams specifically for turbo
Stage 2 - Forced Induction
Designed specifically for turbo or supercharger applications.
Low duration, high lift profile.
Requires Crower spring kit #84177.
RPM Range: Idle to 8000+
Advertised Duration
intake-245
exhaust-245
Duration @ .050''
intake-193
exhaust-193
Gross Lift w/ 1.85
intake-440
exhaust-440
yeah it speaks about how it is specifically for turbo but is this the best way to go</TD></TR></TABLE>
"NA" cams are made for alot of valve overlap - when both your intake and exhaust valves are open, this allows for your exhaust to "suck" in through the intake as it flows out. "Turbo" cams have less overlap, because with all the boost you would be blowing what came in through your intake through your exhaust valves.
Stage 2 - Forced Induction
Designed specifically for turbo or supercharger applications.
Low duration, high lift profile.
Requires Crower spring kit #84177.
RPM Range: Idle to 8000+
Advertised Duration
intake-245
exhaust-245
Duration @ .050''
intake-193
exhaust-193
Gross Lift w/ 1.85
intake-440
exhaust-440
yeah it speaks about how it is specifically for turbo but is this the best way to go</TD></TR></TABLE>
"NA" cams are made for alot of valve overlap - when both your intake and exhaust valves are open, this allows for your exhaust to "suck" in through the intake as it flows out. "Turbo" cams have less overlap, because with all the boost you would be blowing what came in through your intake through your exhaust valves.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
