sorry if this doesn't belong in this forum, but I figured everyone here would at least appreciate how cool this thing is.....

we are getting a 3D laser printer at work. For those of you who don't know what that is, you basicly draw up your prototype in solidworks, feed it into the machine, and it builds it for you. I have seen some of the companies sample pieces and they are amazing. the thing can build complicated pieces that include multiple parts. Things like 2 piece hinges that are built at the same time and need no assembly.

this one to be specific
http://www.3dsystems.com/produ...x.asp

at any rate, I was thinking about all the cool **** I could build with it and thought about doing an intake manifold. anyone know how hot a cyl head gets? I don't have the material data sheet in front of me right now but obviously it could be a disaster if it gets too hot. Are there any other problems I might run into. Are any production cars using plastic IMs right now? Basicly just looking for input on this idea.

 

well u might want to search to see what the ls1 chevy manifold is made of sense it is sum material of a plastic i believe

 

The problem with 3D printers is that they use a low-melting thermoplastic. You would need to use ABS or PC (or another thermoset plastic) to keep it from becoming soft when it gets warm.

 

Amodel PPA , try searching that stuff it is about the closest i came. didnt really try to go deeper but it seems like that is the material, or the company that uses that kind of plastic.

 

ok I've been going through their data sheets and for the plastics the best I could find was this

Heat Deflection Temperature ASTM D 648 @ 0.45 MPa/66 Psi 180deg C (356 deg f)

and at higher pressure the temp is lower. I guess it can withstand more heat at lower pressures.

 

a thread i made last year

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1066370

 

I'm not too worried about pressure since this is for a na motor, but i had read that the stock ls1 IM was rated for 80 psi.

I had forgotten about the D17 though. might have to take a look at how it is constructed.

 

1st gen Neons had a plastic IM, too (I guess that's more of a con than pro)

 

The LS1/LS6 intake manifolds are made of "space aged" lol, polymer plastics. The GM intake manifolds are actually made from a material called Nylon 66, which is a combination of nylon and chopped glass which makes it very rigid. The reason in using composites is to dissipate heat as apposed to metal intakes, which some less than others will retain a certain amount of heat. As a bi-product the plastic is lighter than most aluminum intakes. I don't know if using that type of machine is going to hold up, it all depends, most "layering" plastic printers are used to mock up prototypes so just make sure its not going to fall apart on you. The LS1/LS6 intake manifolds are also vacuum induction molds, meaning they are designed in cad and then the two halves are formed using air/vacuum pressure to hold them into the mold. Incorporating bushings and reinforcements around the mounting studs will help to prevent stress fractures and cracking when tightened down. You might want to contact FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology), a division of Comp Cams, they make the LSX intake manifolds which are a little lighter then the GM manifolds but i'm not 100% sure which composite they are using. In any even, I hope some of this information is useful, best of luck.





Modified by Quick 99 at 2:46 AM 8/10/2005

 

I mold plastic manifolds. Make alot of different manifolds from the Neons, GM's 4,5,6 cylinders, Ford I-4's and V8's, Nissan Titan, Toyota Tacoma, etc, etc.... Most of them are nylon 66 with anywhere from 20-33% glass filled. We run this material at 260 deg C. and above, its not going to melt from the cylinder head heat. An average wall thickness is 3mm and their static burst is anywhere from 6-14 bar depending on customer.

 

what would a cost on something like this be?

what would your use for the flange? would it be plastic or would the flange be aluminum, bonded to the plastic runners?

thanks

 

Sorry I posted above in a hurry and left out some info. I meant to say the company I work for makes plastic manifolds, not me personally. I work on the technical end troubleshooting problems, new program launches, etc. Basically just walk around all day and wait for something to go bad wrong.


Modified by KP at 8:38 PM 8/10/2005

 

who do you work for? and would they possibly be interested in producing a "performance" manifold for honda's??

 

Company is named Montaplast out of Germany. They're strictly OEM supplier and opened this plant here in the States for the big 3 business they had. We've ended up getting away from the big 3 (for the most part) and have spread to Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota,etc. There would be no way they'd do an aftermarket manifold. They dont even consider jobs less than 250,000 a year unless its a company we haven't done business with before and we're trying to attract them. Mainly a tier 1 company but also supply Visteon and Denso, Delphi on some programs... We work with mostly $1,000,000 + molds with volumes of 500,000 + parts per year. All I work with is the multi shell stuff that gets welded together. We also do lost core molding but I stay out of that area, too hot, too dirty, too much labor.

I wish I could help though as that would be badass making aftermarket manifolds. Sure beats the boring OEM crap I deal with. I will say though that with all the customers I've dealt with toyota and nissan are by far the most highly quality controlled manifolds we make. Miles ahead of the big 3 especially GM. Some of the crap they come up with and/or accept is mind boggling considering the amount of money invested into this stuff.

 

i would be willing to be your guinea pig

just remember me when u get rich!!! lol

 

2002 on up Focus have a Plastic IM and TB it holds up decently on boost ~8psi
more than that better swap it out, but scince it will be for a NA application well i have a B16 guinea pig

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boosted Rex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i would be willing to be your guinea pig

just remember me when u get rich!!! lol</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ditto!

 

Most BMWs made in the past 15 years have had plastic IMs - they're a nylon thermoplastic that is very similar to the GM stuff for LSx engines.

They've held up fine to 30 psi of boost.

I don't think this idea will work though, those photolithography plastics are not very strong, and tend to be quite brittle. The vibrations and temps from an engine would destroy them in a short time period.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Def &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think this idea will work though, those photolithography plastics are not very strong, and tend to be quite brittle. The vibrations and temps from an engine would destroy them in a short time period.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess thats the kind of thing I wanted to know, even if it isn't what I wanted to hear.

We had some sample pieces that seemed to have some flex to them but they were pretty thin walled, so I won't rule out them getting brittle when you make a thicker piece.

we're getting a training class when the guy comes to set the machine up and calibrate it and all. I'll just ask him about it.

 

i honestly don't think engine temps would ruin it. water temp is usually around 185-195 and air intake temps are around 100-150. so if your specs are right stating that it can with stand temps up to 356f. temps should be np if it doesn't cost u anything and it's something u want to try, go for it man!!! the biggest concern i have would be puting holes through the plastic for the sensors and tb

edit: oh and those ait are with a stock mani so if it's plastic ait would be even lower

 

I dont think the issue here is heat, more so to the process used. those type of printers as stated by def are pretty brittle, and the actual "printing" process of the plastic material isnt really the best. it's like taking a bunch of thin layers and gluing them together, for this type of application an extrusion would provide the one or two piece design which would hold out better to the vibration, it's going to need to flex a little and no matter what material you use to print with, the glue is a different material, so you come out with something mixed. where as with the extrusion you have the original material for the whole piece.

cool idea, but i dont think it would last long

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jweller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I guess thats the kind of thing I wanted to know, even if it isn't what I wanted to hear.

We had some sample pieces that seemed to have some flex to them but they were pretty thin walled, so I won't rule out them getting brittle when you make a thicker piece.

we're getting a training class when the guy comes to set the machine up and calibrate it and all. I'll just ask him about it.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I'm not sure exactly what type of rapid prototyping maching you're going to be getting, but all the stuff I've seen is very brittle. The photolithography machines that use UV light to activate some mad expensive liquid which then turns into a solid is not what I'd call "extremely fragile," but it will crack if you drop it at all, and too much torque from bolts will also crack it, so will vibration.

The "ink jet" printer type where you print onto corn starch or some other type of bulk material with a binder is VERY weak. They're really only good for visualizing things or making a casting mold. You can crack the pieces in your hand if you squeeze hard enough, and they will definitely shatter if you drop them. Think of the strength as something like a "dirt clod" - where it's pretty stiff, but as soon as you hit/stress it with something it has a brittle failure. I think the binder in this kind also doesn't stand up to sustained heat very well.


The photolithography machines are mad expensive too, and the gel is hundreds of dollars per gallon IIRC. So the intake manifold probably won't be that good of a deal if you made it out of that stuff.