Hi,

I've got a B16a bottom end with nothing in it. If i buy CTR pistons, rods, cranks etc... and a CTR head and ecu. Would it all fit in nicely??? I know the deck height is shorter in the B16a block, but would the stock CTR stuff just slide right in?

Thanks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by barefootbonzai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi,

I've got a B16a bottom end with nothing in it. If i buy CTR pistons, rods, cranks etc... and a CTR head and ecu. Would it all fit in nicely??? I know the deck height is shorter in the B16a block, but would the stock CTR stuff just slide right in?

Thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

I fail to see what you are getting at. Will it fit? Sure... will the pistons come out of the hole about 7mm? yes.. Would it run? no.

 

I thought this was the case if you're using ITR cranks and rods. So CTR cranks and rods are the same as ITR cranks and rod???......

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by barefootbonzai &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought this was the case if you're using ITR cranks and rods. So CTR cranks and rods are the same as ITR cranks and rod???...... </TD></TR></TABLE>

The crank is the same in terms of stroke as a standard B16. I am not 100% sure on this because the info doesn't seem to be out there, but I believe the rods are different in terms of length. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

So how valid is your first comment?

 

B16B's have the same deck height as the B18C's, but the B16A's stroke. To fix this, Honda used longer rods, and netted a R/S-ratio of about ~1.84.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Oyvind Ryeng &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">B16B's have the same deck height as the B18C's, but the B16A's stroke. To fix this, Honda used longer rods, and netted a R/S-ratio of about ~1.84.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats what I was looking for. So with this in mind, you could use the crank and pistons, but would need to keep the B16A rods in order to make it work correctly.

 

he is correct the b16b share the same deck height as the b18c1/b18c5 and even b18a/b but has very long rods giving it its good rod to stroke ratio and thats why it loves high rpm power

 

u can use the CTR pistons.
Dont waste the $$ on a type R crank. just go grab a nice b16a crank and it will do you good.

shotpeen the rods and ARP rod bolts will take care of the remainder.

 

i agree with the b16a crank, rods, and ctr pistons

 

what is the bore size needed for the ctrs? and im actually in the same position but i wanted to know can you put ctr head internals in a b16a head?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lessDXHB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what is the bore size needed for the ctrs? and im actually in the same position but i wanted to know can you put ctr head internals in a b16a head?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure, but why? I mean, asside from the springs and intake valves, whats the point?

Pistons are in 81mm and 81.25mm depending on which you order.

 

arnt the cams more agressive? I figured if i use ctr or p30 pistons it would go nice with ctr cams springs and valves.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lessDXHB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">arnt the cams more agressive? I figured if i use ctr or p30 pistons it would go nice with ctr cams springs and valves.</TD></TR></TABLE>

CTR pistons in a B16 = not smart imo. Yes, the cams are obviously more aggressive. I didn't list those because that was more of a "common knowledge" thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CTR pistons in a B16 = not smart imo.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm curious why you state that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm curious why you state that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

One, they come out of the deck in a B16/B17, and thus produce VERY high compression.

Two, the dome is rather high and interfears with flame travel

Three, they are a decent amount heavier then say PR3's

Four, PR3's would be a better choice and are cheaper.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One, they come out of the deck in a B16/B17, and thus produce VERY high compression.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The resulting C/R should be below 11:1, which is actually a decent ratio for a mild build.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Two, the dome is rather high and interfears with flame travel</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'll agree that the shape isn't ideal, but plenty of people make very good, reliable power utilizing the CTR slugs nevertheless.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Three, they are a decent amount heavier then say PR3's</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you have any figures comparing the weights? I'm simply curious (for my own edification), because I would assume there are obviously differences, but doubt they're so significant as to cause any problems. Keep in mind that CTR pistons have been used in very high-revving applications. The real concern should be a balanced rotating assembly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Four, PR3's would be a better choice and are cheaper.</TD></TR></TABLE>

PR3's are B16A pistons, so they wouldn't provide any sort of upgrade in this situation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The resulting C/R should be below 11:1, which is actually a decent ratio for a mild build.

I'll agree that the shape isn't ideal, but plenty of people make very good, reliable power utilizing the CTR slugs nevertheless.


PR3's are B16A pistons, so they wouldn't provide any sort of upgrade in this situation. </TD></TR></TABLE>
you are absolutely correct , they are a great choice for a basic all-moter B16

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The resulting C/R should be below 11:1, which is actually a decent ratio for a mild build.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ctr pistons in a B16 would NOT yield 11:1 compression. You apparently know little of what you are talking about. Go figure out the compression again using a NEGATIVE deck height of -.007. What do you get? Yeah, thank you.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'll agree that the shape isn't ideal, but plenty of people make very good, reliable power utilizing the CTR slugs nevertheless.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Get the compression sky high and I would HOPE they make more power over stock.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do you have any figures comparing the weights? I'm simply curious (for my own edification), because I would assume there are obviously differences, but doubt they're so significant as to cause any problems. Keep in mind that CTR pistons have been used in very high-revving applications. The real concern should be a balanced rotating assembly.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't recall saying they would "Cause problems". My point is there better options, much better options, available.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
PR3's are B16A pistons, so they wouldn't provide any sort of upgrade in this situation. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I know what PR3 pistons are. That was simply an example. Use a JDM ITR, use a P30. Not a huge bump, but a bump none-the-less. Want more? Go aftermarket, mill the head, deck the block, use a P72 head, etc.. etc..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GUILOTINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you are absolutely correct , they are a great choice for a basic all-moter B16
</TD></TR></TABLE>

He is absolutely incorrect. I just love how many people STILL don't know the real compression these pistons yield in the B16/B17 block. Have either of you two actually ever used them yourself? Have you seen, first hand, that they COME OUT OF THE BLOCK. Is this hard to understand? Stock piston to deck height is around 20 thousanths. That means, stock, the pistons SIT IN THE HOLE 20 thousanths... Alright, take some CTR pistons, put them on the B16 rods (which would need modifications to the small end FYI) and then see what happens. Well, what do you know, they COME OUT OF THE HOLE now..Figure a negative deck height of -.007 and then see what you come up with. Try something around 11.9-12:0.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ctr pistons in a B16 would NOT yield 11:1 compression. You apparently know little of what you are talking about. Go figure out the compression again using a NEGATIVE deck height of -.007. What do you get? Yeah, thank you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

First, calm down a bit. You're correct that I neglected to alter stock piston to deck height values when calculating the compression. Have you personally measured the deck height to arrive at the figure you stated?


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Get the compression sky high and I would HOPE they make more power over stock.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The resulting compression is still far from "sky high". In addition, my statement was that individuals have made excellent power using the PCT pistons, not simply that they "make more power over stock". The fact I was pointing out was that the shape of these pistons is not as detrimental as you would have others believe.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't recall saying they would "Cause problems". My point is there better options, much better options, available.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The way you phrased your post gave the impression that the greater mass of the CTR pistons was a negative attribute. Again, I pointed out that it really is a non-issue on a properly built motor. You speak of the much better options available, but you go on to suggest stock B16A pistons for a B16A build.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know what PR3 pistons are. That was simply an example. Use a JDM ITR, use a P30. Not a huge bump, but a bump none-the-less. Want more? Go aftermarket, mill the head, deck the block, use a P72 head, etc.. etc..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Of course there are other ways to raise the compression of a B16A, but search around and you'll discover quite a few individuals who have had tremendous success running the CTR's in their B16A's. Here's a nice example: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1201433

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

First, calm down a bit. You're correct that I neglected to alter stock piston to deck height values when calculating the compression. Have you personally measured the deck height to arrive at the figure you stated?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, actually I have personally measured them. In both b16's AND in B17's. Have you? I have built many engines, I don't speak from my ***.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The resulting compression is still far from "sky high". In addition, my statement was that individuals have made excellent power using the PCT pistons, not simply that they "make more power over stock". The fact I was pointing out was that the shape of these pistons is not as detrimental as you would have others believe.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, its not sky high. Its just high.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The way you phrased your post gave the impression that the greater mass of the CTR pistons was a negative attribute. Again, I pointed out that it really is a non-issue on a properly built motor. You speak of the much better options available, but you go on to suggest stock B16A pistons for a B16A build.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its my opinion. I am entitled to it. I think there are much better choices.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course there are other ways to raise the compression of a B16A, but search around and you'll discover quite a few individuals who have had tremendous success running the CTR's in their B16A's. Here's a nice example: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1201433</TD></TR></TABLE>

I had them in my B17. Back when I used the false figures and got the wrong compression ratio and assumed they were as awesome as you do. I learned the hard way. I dynoed both before and after. I went from CTR pistons to PR3's.. Thats from 12:1 to 10.7:1. Big jump eh? I lost a whopping 8whp from the switch. Joy. Tell me about how great they are.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just love how many people STILL don't know the real compression these pistons yield in the B16/B17 block. Have either of you two actually ever used them yourself? Have you seen, first hand, that they COME OUT OF THE BLOCK.</TD></TR></TABLE>

hmmm when I tuned built and tuned our B16 I did alot of searching. Shawn Church of Church's Automtive testing assured me that PCT pistons in a B16 yield a compression of about 11:1, so thats why I went with a 1 piece head gasket to try to get it closer to 11.5:1
Read More about my Build here

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GUILOTINE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hmmm when I tuned built and tuned our B16 I did alot of searching. Shawn Church of Church's Automtive testing assured me that PCT pistons in a B16 yield a compression of about 11:1, so thats why I went with a 1 piece head gasket to try to get it closer to 11.5:1
Read More about my Build here</TD></TR></TABLE>


Then Shawn Church of Church's Automotive made a mistake. Plain and simple.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=717928

http://www.zealautowerks.com

Feel free to research and learn for yourself. I'm not trying to be a dick, but that dude CLEARLY does not know how to correctly calculate CR if he seriously did that and came up with 11:1.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Feel free to research and learn for yourself. I'm not trying to be a dick, but that dude CLEARLY does not know how to correctly calculate CR if he seriously did that and came up with 11:1.</TD></TR></TABLE>
not being a dick, but every other Compression calculater says B16's with PCT's are 11:1
whats weird is that this Compression Calculater says that a stock JDM ITR is 11.32 when we all know that it is 11:1 for a fact. And that a stock CTR is 10.40:1 when we know it is rated 10.8:1 at the factory