I searched before posting and saw that a lot of people want a Honda RWD setup on the FWD chassis of the car that they love. Also saw a lot of pissy replies so I'm going to preface my post (first one in a looooong time) so that everyone knows where I am coming from.

First, I am not some kid. I lived in Japan as an English teacher for some time where I had an R32 Skyline GTS-4. I saw things there that many young people cannot even imagine...and I didn't till I lived there. I am a teacher now so my plans are not daydreams. And finally, I am not a welder and I have to rely on a shop. I was told that this was THE thread to come ask professional welders just how hard things are and what are some things to look out for.

So.....

Now, that I am back in the US I am looking for a car. I really want an Infiniti M30 but they are few and far between here in the South. In fact, I cannot recall the last time I even saw one here in Tennessee. So, can't buy what ain't there. I have considered two other cars that came out when I was in high school - Buick Reatta and Cadillac Allante. GM made two prototype RWD Reattas and if true, some Reatta collector is going to buy the remaining one from Georgia. IIUC, the guy runs the Buick Reatta section of a Buick Forum I visit. As for the Allante, well that'll all have to be worked out.

I went to a shop in Murfreesboro, TN (Performance Concepts - Eddie Carlisle is the owner) to talk to him about doing the Allante. Here is a long reply I posted at a Caddy board I also post at:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Performance Concepts
1259 NW Broad St, Murfreesboro, TN 37129
Phone: (615) 890-9755
Owner: Eddie Carlisle

Well, went to talk to him today and I gotta say that this guy is the second coolest shop guy I have ever talked to in the USA! The other was Bill MacDowell, owner of Wild Bill's Electronics in Boaz, Alabama. I'll post up what he told me and if anyone wants to verify it, they are free to visit a local shop of their own. Might be a good idea as I am not a mechanic and you might get a better price.

So,

When I popped the idea to him, Eddie never blinked his eyes and said matter of factly and instantly that it could "easily" be done - that is, easily for a fabricator with years of racing experience. He thought the idea was really cool and in fact, there are a lot of "pro stock" racers doing exactly what I am thinking about for the Allante. And, not entirely the same thing, but the shop has a late '70s Malibu that is getting tubbed so they are doing the same thing for that car that they would have to do to an Allante...or even a mid-90s Eldorado. He said making a FWD car into RWD was more common than some people realize...people outside the racing world.

Eddie is more into drag racing and the shop car has a turbocharged Camaro putting down over 600hp. I liked the idea that he was very familar with what I was wanting to do and he has seen it/done it before with other cars for racing. That it why he first suggested a Ford 9" rear and that it would be an easy job as they fab this rear for several draggers who come in. I mentioned the Vette IRS and he said that for street driving that it would be even better. Plus, C4 Vettes are plentiful and some should be able to be found in a junk yard. Need the front engine cradle to be customized for the Northstar and the IRS can easily be cut out. One went on EBAY for less than $600 just today!

He did ask why I wanted the Northstar and I said the keep the Caddy theme going. The T-56 Tremec will need its bellhousing modified, but he said he was familar with that (from streetrodders) and that it was no problem. He did warn about the cost of repairing a North* as compared to an LS1 pluss the cheaper cost and more power of the Chevy engine. I see his point but I'd rather go Caddy for the engine. I didn't take pics of the Malibu's custom rear and now I wish I had.

When it came to price, he said it depends on sourcing the parts from a salvage yard (I got that part covered) as that's a cost he cannot control. But, he said that he could easily see it being done for $5000, but that he wanted to give himself some room so he quoted $5000-$8000. I asked him worse case scenario what the cost would be. He said he didn't know because so many things happen in a swap, but mentioned that he could not see EVERYTHING costing over $10,000+cost of the donor car. I would like to get an estimate in writing, but for such a project, I don't think that any shop would.

I then asked him a time frame and mentioned 2months. He said he could definitely finish it all in 3months. He does a good business and his workers seemed hard at it especially getting a truck ready in time for a show. There is a car show every Friday night at the Stones River Mall in Murfreesboro (in the back) and he left to take his Camaro to the show. I left the show before he got there though.

So, if anyone wants to call Eddie at Performance Concepts in Murfreesboro I posted the number and address. I can give directions and its easy to get to. Its on US Highway41 that parallels I-24 from Nashville to Chattanooga and across from HOOTERS!. I was hoping that having so many drag racing/NASCAR-BUSCH shops in the area would come in handy with this project and so it seems all can work out.

Eddie said to come in once I got a car and we could work out all the details from engine mounts, to installing the tranny through the floorboard, if a custom welded tunnel would be needed, moving the gas tank, cutting out the spare tire well, and other odds and ends. In the end though, he thought the idea was really cool and didn't see why Allante owners would get so pissy and insist that it couldn't be done. He has been fabbing and racing for years so once he gets the geometry down (I kept saying "measurements" but I learned its more correct to say geometry), its just a matter of cutting and welding.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I know that I am not asking about a Honda but the project is the same. The guy was really cool and seems like his shop makes quality work (600hp turbocharged Camaro and he is tubbing a late 70s Malibu, etc...) but there are some things I'd like to ask so I can speak intelligently.

1. How difficult is it to work out the geometry?

2. What are some things that I should mention/ask about/focus on?

3. Any advice from people who have actually done such a swap before?

4. Anyone know of a shop with lots of experience in making FWD cars RWD that I can go to without worry?

Plan to start in the winter as I already have a daily driver. I know projects can die a slow death due to poor planning/funding and I will make sure that mine doesn't wind up on EBAY because of it.

 

You need to start reading suspension books. Here's my list from my mid-engine Mini project. http://www.kimini.com/Reference/index.html

 

Well if you follow honda tuning magazine, greg leone is making a rwd civic. Theres some articles on there web site too.

 

If you haven't already, you should check out this thread

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=981613

 

Saw that mid-engine swap and as cool as it is, its complication is beyond my budget. I can swing $5000-$8000 but I have no doubt that his swap is waaay over that with all the custom welding he has had to do. I've seen the Braille drifting Integra online but never in person nor have I talked to anyone who has experience with such a swap.

It looks fairly easy (for a qualified shop) and the one in M'Boro makes drag racers but its like renting a movie or going to a restaurant - you look for reviews from other people before going. And, these are for things less than $20 while getting a car done is reallu irreversible and several thousand dollars.

I figured some Honda guys who have had this done will eventually see this thread and chime on on the good, the bad, and the ugly of what to expect and look out for.

 

Speaking as someone who is personally doing the a FWD to RWD swap.

My advice:
If you are concerned about the money involved, best not start something you possibly cannot afford to finish.

That said, FR is a bit different than MR. It may be a bit less work in adapting the physical engine layout, but is nonetheless a LOT of work. You need a clear and consise plan. For me, every hour I've spent working on the project has meant at least 3 hours in planning.

When trying to get all the suspension geometry correct, a frame jig is an invaluble tool. I wouldn't attempt such a project without one. Best of luck!

 

I can afford a FR swap, but from what I have seen, the MR swaps are so labor intensive and expensive. Luckily, that is not what I am looking for. I would like to start in November and this gives me plenty of time to prepare everything. The shop I'd have doing it looks legit, but before I do anything I would like to get some input from people who have actually had this done.

The car would be a daily driver/drifter because FF cannot drift. I hate so many American kids wanting to argue this fact, but since this is the welding forum with experienced people, I have no doubt that you guys understand. Need FR to do it and a Caddy convertible would be different.....and a Del Sol would be cool too.

 

your best bet would be to find a forum with stock and super stock racers as they have been converting cavi's,grand ams, cougars and those types of cars into FR v8 drag cars for many years. its a pretty straight foward deal not insanely hard for someone who has built a few chasis cars.

 

i am guessing this will be some sort of chassis car? or at least a roll cage with a backhalf? i understood u said it will be a street car but u never know what people want to do nowadays

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by therealpoorboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">your best bet would be to find a forum with stock and super stock racers as they have been converting cavi's,grand ams, cougars and those types of cars into FR v8 drag cars for many years. its a pretty straight foward deal not insanely hard for someone who has built a few chasis cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Any advice on where to find a good site? I will admit that I am not a mechanic nor a welder so I'm not an expert.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigTom &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i am guessing this will be some sort of chassis car? or at least a roll cage with a backhalf? i understood u said it will be a street car but u never know what people want to do nowadays</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope, its going to remain unibody for the most part with custom mounting points for a C4 IRS. Since the Allante is a convertible and will be a street car, it won't get a full cage but rather a typical convertible half-cage (I guess is the term).

 

are you on Ziptied cause someone there was discussing the very same thing?

 

Yes, I am the same guy. I don't know why ZT has so many haters on such a project....well, its really only one really obnoxious hater screaming for attention.

I KNOW this is a hard project for a non-welder and that is why that although I could save money doing it myself, I simply lack the skill. It's also why I'm asking experienced welders who have done the unusual. I also understand people getting tired of kids asking stupid questions about things they will never do, but I think that it is clear that what I am planning is nowhere near a kid's wetdream. What kid wants a Cadillac?

Hell, GM already did this with a Reatta and I'm waiting on the magazine issues and hearing back from the guy trying to buy the remaining one in Georgia. If it turns out to be easier, faster, and cheaper to make a RWD Reatta, then as much as I like the Allante, I can live with the Reatta. You can get Reattas for under $1200 if one looks enough.

I talked to a local streetrod builder and he said it could be easy for his shop but we would have to talk more to get measurements. This is why I get tired of people who don't know squat running off their mouth that just because they cannot do it that it must be impossible for the rest of the planet or that the project is stupid.

I expect the hater to whine on ZT until my thread gets locked there and it'll have to live on here. Found two pro-stock forums but both require a $20 and $25 member fee to post. There are places I can go in Tennessee but posting online is just faster and saves on gas.

Haters are just as dumb as they are

 

And I was right about ZT. Haters more interested in telling me that they could weld rather than actually telling me HOW.

Trying to showoff online......If you don't know then that's fine. Some people and their need for a fanclub.

 

It seems like the easiest way to go is to do a full tube frame for it or at least back half it.

 

I think that is what will have to be done and that is why getting the geometry is so critical. The hot rod sho is getting ready to go to a show in Louisville this weekend and the owner said I should come by next week. Will do and we'll see from there.

 

scrouge2u;

Go into the Kimini site (linked to in one of the first responses), print and read every page! I deeply respect what he is doing due to the fact that he is not just moving the front engine carrage assembly to the rear of the car. He has designed and fabricated the suspension for where it's located! (dang, I don't want it to sound like I'm bad mouthing some of the other conversions) By doing this, he can define the desired camber curves, toe change and anti-squat (and other things).

Think about the amount of time that he has spent on the project. (not the lapsed time, but actual time worked) Due to the fact that he is building a complete car, his amount of time should be greater than what the Hot Rod shop would have to spend on your car, but there is also the fact that he doesn't have to work within the limiting configuration of the Cadillac. So, I'd bet that your Cadallac project would take about 75% of the time of the Kimini. Do you really think that the Hot Rod shop can get your project back in drivable condition in only 3 months???? Even if you think they have enough personal to do it, the man-hours would be massive and would be billed "by the hour".

I can understand your desire for the project, but I doubt it would be worth the cost.

Wes

 

I am not an expert on this...far from it. But, the way I understand it when you make a FR car MR, you encounter so many new calculations/issues that do not show up in a simple FF to FR conversion. Making that Mini requires many more hours needed for the Allante/Reatta. Also, I now have purchased the C&D issue of the RWD Reatta to get an idea of what GM did.

I have also emailed Braille to find out more about their FR Integra.

As for the Hot Rod shop and 3 months? I don't know. They are an outlet for Kugel and I'll talk to them about the Focus kit. I do know that the racing shop in M'Boro makes drag cars in less time. I'll source the parts plus strip the interior/pull the engine and take whatever shop I use an empty shell. The math will have been worked out prior to cutting anything. I see 3 months working on it each day as plenty of time.

I won't be billed "by the hour" but by the project. I appreciate your post Wes, but what I am wanting is no where near the complexity/cost of the Kimini.