No, Its Not NASCAR (How Cheaters are Handled in Amatuer Racing)
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From: Plotting My Revenge
No, Its Not NASCAR (How Cheaters are Handled in Amatuer Racing)
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1303417
I keep seeing stuff like this all over the web and I just don't get it. So I'll try to help out a bit.
Look guys, if you'll read the rulebooks you'll see (at least with the big sanctioning bodies) how protests are handled. It tells you how to do it right there in the book, you know, that book that apparently none of us reads.
No, this isn't NASCAR or F1 or even SWC. In those places the responsibility for rules enforcement falls on tech inspectors. They look over the cars both before and after the races and they look closely.
That is professional racing. On TV. For money (sometimes lots of it).
In amateur racing its different. Tech only has responsibility for enforcement of safety rules. Everything else (some events like the Runoffs and the ARRC are exceptions) is self policed by the competition. You see something wrong, you protest, the stewards rule.
One more time...
YOU spot the problem.
YOU Protest.
Stewards rule.
Bitching about it on the internet or talking about it to other competitors without ever saying anything to the offending party accomplishes NOTHING. Sometimes the "cheater" is a newby and doesn't even realize they are cheating.
Try this simple approach...
"Hi, I'm xxxxxx and I'm in your class. Did you know that xxxxx is not legal in xxxx class?"
This gives them the warning and a valid chance to correct the issue. If they show up again next time without a change... Protest them.
Finally, if you don't have the ***** to say anything about it... Shut the hell up and deal with it. Whining about it to everybody BUT the offending party accomplishes absolutely NOTHING.
Scott, who says "Thats how it works, if you don't like it go play golf."
I keep seeing stuff like this all over the web and I just don't get it. So I'll try to help out a bit.
Look guys, if you'll read the rulebooks you'll see (at least with the big sanctioning bodies) how protests are handled. It tells you how to do it right there in the book, you know, that book that apparently none of us reads.
No, this isn't NASCAR or F1 or even SWC. In those places the responsibility for rules enforcement falls on tech inspectors. They look over the cars both before and after the races and they look closely.
That is professional racing. On TV. For money (sometimes lots of it).
In amateur racing its different. Tech only has responsibility for enforcement of safety rules. Everything else (some events like the Runoffs and the ARRC are exceptions) is self policed by the competition. You see something wrong, you protest, the stewards rule.
One more time...
YOU spot the problem.
YOU Protest.
Stewards rule.
Bitching about it on the internet or talking about it to other competitors without ever saying anything to the offending party accomplishes NOTHING. Sometimes the "cheater" is a newby and doesn't even realize they are cheating.
Try this simple approach...
"Hi, I'm xxxxxx and I'm in your class. Did you know that xxxxx is not legal in xxxx class?"
This gives them the warning and a valid chance to correct the issue. If they show up again next time without a change... Protest them.
Finally, if you don't have the ***** to say anything about it... Shut the hell up and deal with it. Whining about it to everybody BUT the offending party accomplishes absolutely NOTHING.
Scott, who says "Thats how it works, if you don't like it go play golf."
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I didn't do anything drastic as it was for the pity positions, if I was in the same position when it was a difference between 1st and 2nd yes I would have said something. I did inform the offending party and made them look silly.
Although my hope in the so called officials kinda fizzled after a nasty incident last year that caused someone I know to give up autoxing just as they were starting out in the sport.
Although my hope in the so called officials kinda fizzled after a nasty incident last year that caused someone I know to give up autoxing just as they were starting out in the sport.
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didn't do anything drastic as it was for the pity positions, if I was in the same position when it was a difference between 1st and 2nd yes I would have said something. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I hear this a lot, and I think it's weak. You're saying that the legal person finishing 6th shouldn't mind getting bumped down to seventh by an "illegal", but a legal person finishing second should protest?
Another common statement is, "it's only a local event". Again, what about the people who ONLY run local events?
I've never autocrossed, but know I could never deal with the blatant cheating by people claiming to only be in it for fun. If that were true, you'd have no problem running in the correct class.
I hear this a lot, and I think it's weak. You're saying that the legal person finishing 6th shouldn't mind getting bumped down to seventh by an "illegal", but a legal person finishing second should protest?
Another common statement is, "it's only a local event". Again, what about the people who ONLY run local events?
I've never autocrossed, but know I could never deal with the blatant cheating by people claiming to only be in it for fun. If that were true, you'd have no problem running in the correct class.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didn't do anything drastic as it was for the pity positions, if I was in the same position when it was a difference between 1st and 2nd yes I would have said something. </TD></TR></TABLE>
But it was important enough for you to do a little web board rant?
Weak.
But it was important enough for you to do a little web board rant?
Weak.
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From: Birmingham, Al.
Re: (ITACivic)
Reminds me of sitting in the tech shed this weekend at Roebling for my region's Double SARRC. A bunch of spec miatas went to the tech shed for variouls reasons. As I am sitting there I watch a SM driver let out the clutch on his car and his right wheel shudders quite a bit as it rolls forward. Hmmm, locked diff. Not legal. But then I am not a spec miata driver or a tech steward. It would not take much for his competitors to spot it if they wanted to (if they don't have one too). To protest in SCCA you put up your money (as in put your money where you mouth is).
Got lucky at Roebling this weekend. Only had about 45 minutes of rain the whole weekend. Whew.
Barry H.
Got lucky at Roebling this weekend. Only had about 45 minutes of rain the whole weekend. Whew.
Barry H.
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From: Snellville, Ga, USA
Re: (apexinghonda)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by apexinghonda »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As I am sitting there I watch a SM driver let out the clutch on his car and his right wheel shudders quite a bit as it rolls forward. Hmmm, locked diff. Not legal. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Or maybe a really tightly adjusted clutch-type diff? I could see that happening with a mazda-comp diff in one of the 1.8s, especially on sandy concrete (ie: Roebling).
Don't call someone a cheater if you can't back it up. It is crappy.
Or maybe a really tightly adjusted clutch-type diff? I could see that happening with a mazda-comp diff in one of the 1.8s, especially on sandy concrete (ie: Roebling).
Don't call someone a cheater if you can't back it up. It is crappy.
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From: Richmond, VA, USA
Re: (Catch 22)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But it was important enough for you to do a little web board rant?
Weak.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wasn't what you did the same exact thing?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1303417
Finally, if you don't have the ***** to say anything about it... Shut the hell up and deal with it. Whining about it to everybody BUT the offending party accomplishes absolutely NOTHING.
Scott, who says "Thats how it works, if you don't like it go play golf."</TD></TR></TABLE>
This looks like a web rant to me.
Eric - who loves racing and golf (a game which probably doesn't take a lot of ***** to play, so we won't see Scott on the course.)
But it was important enough for you to do a little web board rant?
Weak.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wasn't what you did the same exact thing?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1303417
Finally, if you don't have the ***** to say anything about it... Shut the hell up and deal with it. Whining about it to everybody BUT the offending party accomplishes absolutely NOTHING.
Scott, who says "Thats how it works, if you don't like it go play golf."</TD></TR></TABLE>
This looks like a web rant to me.
Eric - who loves racing and golf (a game which probably doesn't take a lot of ***** to play, so we won't see Scott on the course.)
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Re: (PS4SE-R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PS4SE-R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">golf (a game which probably doesn't take a lot of ***** to play ... )</TD></TR></TABLE>
It does if you're really bad at it.
People who say they're only there "for fun" and class themselves incorrectly baffle me. I know my STS2 Miata is slower than a CS Miata, but when I autocross, I class myself in STS2, because that's where I belong. It's not hard...
It does if you're really bad at it.
People who say they're only there "for fun" and class themselves incorrectly baffle me. I know my STS2 Miata is slower than a CS Miata, but when I autocross, I class myself in STS2, because that's where I belong. It's not hard...
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From: Columbia, MO, USA
Re: (RacerBowie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerBowie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Or maybe a really tightly adjusted clutch-type diff? I could see that happening with a mazda-comp diff in one of the 1.8s, especially on sandy concrete (ie: Roebling).
</TD></TR></TABLE>My diff is legal and it can scratch and do the shudder thing around tight corners as I start the car rolling. No big deal. Doesn't mean I'm cheating!
And yes, next year when I'm probably going to be racing mostly on Sundays, I will be a big rules nerd to people if I have to be. So far I've been a little surprised by the level of "whatever" ness that people in my division have with the rules considering how close the class usually runs together time wise, but I know why it happens. There are lots of gray-area things in the rules that will be fixed for next season but right now they're not legal. And yet, they're showing up on people's cars already! I'm guilty of it too, even if it's to a lesser extent.
If you feel it's a legitimate performance gain that you can't have because you're following the rules, protest protest protest. If you're pissed because you lost and you know his car isn't legal because his radiator is mounted slightly back from where it should be or some other crap that you know doesn't make a difference (be sure you know that it doesn't give an advantage - the first step to knowing is thinking and thinking can be hard to do if you're pissed) accept that you got beaten and go faster next time.
Or maybe a really tightly adjusted clutch-type diff? I could see that happening with a mazda-comp diff in one of the 1.8s, especially on sandy concrete (ie: Roebling).
</TD></TR></TABLE>My diff is legal and it can scratch and do the shudder thing around tight corners as I start the car rolling. No big deal. Doesn't mean I'm cheating!
And yes, next year when I'm probably going to be racing mostly on Sundays, I will be a big rules nerd to people if I have to be. So far I've been a little surprised by the level of "whatever" ness that people in my division have with the rules considering how close the class usually runs together time wise, but I know why it happens. There are lots of gray-area things in the rules that will be fixed for next season but right now they're not legal. And yet, they're showing up on people's cars already! I'm guilty of it too, even if it's to a lesser extent.
If you feel it's a legitimate performance gain that you can't have because you're following the rules, protest protest protest. If you're pissed because you lost and you know his car isn't legal because his radiator is mounted slightly back from where it should be or some other crap that you know doesn't make a difference (be sure you know that it doesn't give an advantage - the first step to knowing is thinking and thinking can be hard to do if you're pissed) accept that you got beaten and go faster next time.
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From: Arlington, VA
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Although my hope in the so called officials kinda fizzled after a nasty incident last year that caused someone I know to give up autoxing just as they were starting out in the sport. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The officials caused an incident? Please elaborate.
Also, in many cases it is not up to officials to enforce classing and rule adherence. As long as the car techs out, we're fine with it. It is up to the participants to bring things to the attention of the officials (by filing a complaint). For instance, even if I knew someone was cheating there isn't anything I could do about it unless a competitor filed a formal complaint. Surely I could go up to the guilty party and have a little chat, but there are certain ways to do things in the racing world. Simply crying about it is not one of them.
The officials caused an incident? Please elaborate.
Also, in many cases it is not up to officials to enforce classing and rule adherence. As long as the car techs out, we're fine with it. It is up to the participants to bring things to the attention of the officials (by filing a complaint). For instance, even if I knew someone was cheating there isn't anything I could do about it unless a competitor filed a formal complaint. Surely I could go up to the guilty party and have a little chat, but there are certain ways to do things in the racing world. Simply crying about it is not one of them.
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Re: (Mike C)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike C »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The officials caused an incident? Please elaborate.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No not like that, the officials when informed about the misclassing simply told me to pound sand. Oh well... they aren't getting my money again.
The officials caused an incident? Please elaborate.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No not like that, the officials when informed about the misclassing simply told me to pound sand. Oh well... they aren't getting my money again.
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From: Arlington, VA
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No not like that, the officials when informed about the misclassing simply told me to pound sand. Oh well... they aren't getting my money again. </TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike C »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there are certain ways to do things in the racing world. Simply crying about it is not one of them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
read: file a complaint.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mike C »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there are certain ways to do things in the racing world. Simply crying about it is not one of them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
read: file a complaint.
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From: RIP Craig Jones
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No not like that, the officials when informed about the misclassing simply told me to pound sand. Oh well... they aren't getting my money again. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If all you are going to do is whine about it instead of talk to the competitor or file a protest, I'd tell you to pound sand too.
No not like that, the officials when informed about the misclassing simply told me to pound sand. Oh well... they aren't getting my money again. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If all you are going to do is whine about it instead of talk to the competitor or file a protest, I'd tell you to pound sand too.
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Re: (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If all you are going to do is whine about it instead of talk to the competitor or file a protest, I'd tell you to pound sand too.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did both.
If all you are going to do is whine about it instead of talk to the competitor or file a protest, I'd tell you to pound sand too.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did both.
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Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did both.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You talked to the competitor? Why are you still whining about it here?
Did both.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You talked to the competitor? Why are you still whining about it here?
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From: Arlington, VA
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did both.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what group is this? i find it hard to believe scca or anyone in the council would ignore an issue.
what group is this? i find it hard to believe scca or anyone in the council would ignore an issue.
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From: Plotting My Revenge
Re: (PS4SE-R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PS4SE-R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This looks like a web rant to me.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Some of us whine on the internet.
Some of us work to make changes, teach people, and start new things.
Some of us obviously play too much golf and can't tell the difference.
Scott, who does in fact think golf is quite boring.
This looks like a web rant to me.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Some of us whine on the internet.
Some of us work to make changes, teach people, and start new things.
Some of us obviously play too much golf and can't tell the difference.
Scott, who does in fact think golf is quite boring.
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From: des moines, ia, usa
Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No not like that, the officials when informed about the misclassing simply told me to pound sand. Oh well... they aren't getting my money again. </TD></TR></TABLE>
get your camcorder in there and see if they act differently. it has worked for me in dealing with "officials" of all stripes (school boards, county supervisors, city managers, building inspectors, ect) then see what it takes to get them relplaced with people who take it seriously. a guy who spend most of his spare cash on a racing season deserves respect from the officials. no matter what he drives or spends.
get your camcorder in there and see if they act differently. it has worked for me in dealing with "officials" of all stripes (school boards, county supervisors, city managers, building inspectors, ect) then see what it takes to get them relplaced with people who take it seriously. a guy who spend most of his spare cash on a racing season deserves respect from the officials. no matter what he drives or spends.
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