RED: Iceman/Spoon 70mm TB/Skunk 2 IM/Jun P13 OBDI tuned with VAFC fully

BLUE: TWM 52mm ITB/motorcycle sock filters/AEM EMS tuned my myself (fuel map tuned, base ignition map untouched)

The rest of the engine mods in both runs are Jun cams/Mugen header/T1R exhaust/UR pulleys. Head and bottem end is USDM stock.

Before you start flaming against the low peak numbers, this particular Dynojet in our area reads ONLY 138whp SAE on a bone stock 5spd, I wont be able to showoff with peak numbers by any chance Plus Im running AEM big brakes and 18" wheels in both runs which would further affect the readings.

Ignore the peak numbers, look at the curve under 7000. I gained 15whp & 15lbs torque at 4200rpm, as much as 20whp & 20lbs torque at 6000 rpm. The gains between 4000-7000 is very impressive, anywhere between 5-20whp gains. VTEC kicks in much harder and torque curve is much smoother.

Driving wise, the car accelerates much faster than before with increased midrange power. On my way home, passing through other cars in the highway has never been so much fun. Throttle response & tip-in power noticeably surpass the previous setup.

Important thing I wanted to point out in this test is that ITBs will NOT lose low end power oh H22, it gained me everywhere from 3000 up to 7000. Infact I didn't gain anything at peak just yet we'll see what happens once my SMSP header is here.



Modified by VSBB6 at 11:36 AM 7/2/2005

 

which dyno was this?

 

Thanks for the great post. I was planning on doing a similar test when I had the parts and the funds, but now I don't have to. You can definately see the huge jump at vtec. It's obvious that Itb's like the aggressive profiles in vtec. That is a very significant improvement, a lot more area under those graphs!!

How much difficulty did you have tuning it for the itb's vs. the std. manifold? I undertand it is a bit trickier.

Edit
I see that the std. manifold set up was tuned with a VAFC, while the Itb's were tuned with an AEM EMS (as is needed). One does need to factor that some of the gains for the Itb set up is tuning. The skunk2 manifold tuned with the EMS would've had better numbers, shortening the gap between the two comparisons. The gap is no doubt there, but probably not as extreme as your dynos represent.


Modified by 2lude4u at 1:31 PM 7/1/2005

 

great comparison and thanks for doing it. how long before you get the new header?

 

What causes the jump at 5500 rpm? That isn't your VTEC activation point is it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2lude4u &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Edit
I see that the std. manifold set up was tuned with a VAFC, while the Itb's were tuned with an AEM EMS (as is needed). One does need to factor that some of the gains for the Itb set up is tuning. The skunk2 manifold tuned with the EMS would've had better numbers, shortening the gap between the two comparisons. The gap is no doubt there, but probably not as extreme as your dynos represent.


Modified by 2lude4u at 1:31 PM 7/1/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed. It is hardly fair to compare two dyno's with one tuned with an AFC and the other AEM EMS, however, interesting nonetheless

 

Well first of the the VAFC tune looks shitty to begin with, and like was mentioned before, it is hard to compare a VAFC tune to an EMS tune... And you should lower your VTEC engagement with the ITB's so it doesn't jump like that...

 

nice post how much did you pay and where did you buy i would like to get one also and yea i already have a smsp header too and i was wondering do i have to use a ems or can i just use a hondata

 

52's are a bit too big for a 2.2 street H22 that wont see much over 8500, you really wont notice the difference untill about 9000-9500+ with the 7 3/4 runners/stacks at 52mm.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2lude4u &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I see that the std. manifold set up was tuned with a VAFC, while the Itb's were tuned with an AEM EMS (as is needed). One does need to factor that some of the gains for the Itb set up is tuning. The skunk2 manifold tuned with the EMS would've had better numbers, shortening the gap between the two comparisons. The gap is no doubt there, but probably not as extreme as your dynos represent.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good point, it is not a direct comparison as tunning device is different.

Just to give you a better picture, the VAFC was tuned to its maximum potential in that run. Even though the graph looks rough, it was the best run we could do with a piggyback system.

As for the AEM EMS, only the fuel map was tuned to optimal a/f, we haven't modify the ignition map so its still running off base map with very conservative timing. If budget isn't a problem I wouldn't mind to fully tune each mod just to see the difference. This last run was already my 143 run on the dyno..

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2lude4u &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

How much difficulty did you have tuning it for the itb's vs. the std. manifold? I undertand it is a bit trickier.

Modified by 2lude4u at 1:31 PM 7/1/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

The hardest part in tunning ITBs is getting it to idle properly. Once you get it right, the rest is the same as tunning a std manifold.

 

Its with UPS, should be here next week or so

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by @ries &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">great comparison and thanks for doing it. how long before you get the new header?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Correct, VTEC is set at 5600 for the ITBs. We did over 15 runs just to find the optimal point with 100rpm increment +/-. This is the optimal point for current setup, lowering or higher the x-over would yield a dip just before VTEC kicks-in.

With previous I/TB/IM setup, VTEC was even higher at 6000. It may sound a bit odd, but this is what the Jun cams like.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TimeRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What causes the jump at 5500 rpm? That isn't your VTEC activation point is it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sam1am26 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well first of the the VAFC tune looks shitty to begin with, and like was mentioned before, it is hard to compare a VAFC tune to an EMS tune... And you should lower your VTEC engagement with the ITB's so it doesn't jump like that...</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Well, for those who are not preludeonline.com members:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VSBB6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have yet seen or heard anyone complaining their ITBs being too big for their setup, and I want to leave myself with more room for future buildup.

If you think too big is bad, too small is even worse. My friend's B18 had a Toda ITBs that was too small for his application, dyno showed very little gains at top and loss midrange power. He ended up selling it for a bigger TWM ITBs which gave him really good gains.

I am very happy with the results, acceleration and driveability has greatly gone up with ITBs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are definitely going to notice gains over the single TB set up with the 52's, but those gains would be more so with the smaller 50's on/with a street set up. Id recomend talking to Gary from TWM regarding TB sizing of his kits and what is recomended for each set up. The 52's were intended for drag use, to be used on engines reaching 9000+ rpm. The 50's being ideal for set ups in the sub 9000 range.

The reason most people dont feel their 52's are too big for their set up (refering to street set ups with rpm ranges under 9K) is simply because the majority have not done any actual comparisons between the 50's and 52's to distinguish the difference and are basing their results and gains over there single TB manifolds which is going to be good even with the 52's.

I would defenitely recomend taking the time to talk to Gary of TWM. There isnt going to be anyone else out there with more knowedge and more testing/development time with the TWM ITB's than Gary himself. Hes a very nice guy whos always been a great help with any questions Ive ever had.

Here are quotes from Randy Monroe who opted to use a set of 50mm TWM ITB's on the H series drag engine that will be powering the Import Power House All Motor Drag CRX and aslo, a quote from Gary of TWM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RMF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The port on an H22 has the area of 50mm. So unless the size of the port at the baseis 50mm,On the 52s it wouldn't do much good.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Garry@TWM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't like to use this forum as a marketing tool but:
50mm throttles will be best if you're under 10K RPM.

TWM ITB's taper all the way from the throttle plate to the port.
Garry</TD></TR></TABLE>

Both taken from this recent thread:

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

 

thanks for doing that ....nice midrange bump ..

i need to get some 50mm twms lol
the diy are a little on the small side ithink

 

I bought the ITB from a member in PO.com, you should visit http://www.twminduction.com for more details. Either EMS or Hondata would work for ITBs, but I would recommend EMS for more flexibility.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by superjunprelude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nice post how much did you pay and where did you buy i would like to get one also and yea i already have a smsp header too and i was wondering do i have to use a ems or can i just use a hondata</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Hondata is not the best or even a good choice for ITB's in a daily driver. You are limited to MAP based tuning which becomes useless for tuning partial throttle. WOT will be fine wtih Hondata but driving the car around everyday, mostly at partial throttle is going to make you hate life. The lack of TPS scaling doesnt help much either, your restricted to the Honda TPS sensor and TWM units use what I believe is a GM TPS sensor.

As for plug and play options, the only real affordable options out there that will allow 100% TPS based or a mixture of both are as follows:

Haltech E6X
AEM EMS
Crome
Neptune

Each of those systems are very ITB friendly and each will allow you to run any TPS sensor needed.

 

^^^ very good information!!

 

IIRC, there are at least a set or two of DIY ITB's that were made that utilized the stock Honda TPS.....assuming this is true, Hondata wouldn't have any disadvantages for tuning, would it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IIRC, there are at least a set or two of DIY ITB's that were made that utilized the stock Honda TPS.....assuming this is true, Hondata wouldn't have any disadvantages for tuning, would it?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, you still wont be able to tune partial throttle with Hondata. WOT tuning will be fine but thats only good for drag cars, doesnt help you much on the street.

Get a good IM, the JG sheetmetal for example. It will do much better than DIY ITB's and allow you the freedom to tune with whatever system you want.

edit:

TWM ITB's&gt;JG Sheetmetal&gt;Skunk2&gt;Euro R&gt;DIY ITB's

Which is why I plan on doing the flow bench testing later this summer, to show everyone the real deal with the IM/ITB options out htere.

Anyways, enough thread jacking... Back on track


Modified by Innovation at 3:37 PM 7/2/2005

 

how did you get yours for i mean i went to the site and their price was like 1900 for one set thats alot you guys know where else i can get twm itb for cheaper thanks in advance and also what you mean by street driving on hondata would suck like example what would it be like if i use the hondata thanks in advance

 

Your not really going to find them for much less than whats advertized on the TWM site, unless... you buy them used :shrugs:

Expect to pay 1700 and up for the whole kit (injectors and all)

You cant proporly tune A/F at partial throttle with Hondata. It runs like ***, even after a ton of tuning time trying to dial it in. If you have plans of running ITB's get Crome or Neptune, both are free or near free and use the Honda ECU just like Hondata. Crome and Neptune allow for 100% TPS based tuning if needed and allows you a nice misxture of MAP and TPS to smooth it all out, definitely the way to go for a daily driver. If you have the money, the EMS and Haltech E6X are both REALLY nice.