looking for 200-225whp w/ the following setup... was wonder if it's possible, and if not, what should i replace and go with

Engine: USDM '94 B18C1 (GSR)...w 150,xxx miles, oh yeah.
Ex. Cam: Skunk 2, Stage 2
In. Cam: Skunk 2, Stage 2
Ex. Valves: Supertech Flat Bottom valves
In. Valves: Supertech Flat Bottom valves
Valve Guides: Portflow bronze guides
Ex. Valve Springs: Supertech dual springs
In. Valve Springs: Supertech dual springs
Retainers: Supertech
LMA: Either modified GSR or Prelude w/ washer (CAN ANYONE VERIFY IF MY GSR LMAs WILL BE FINE FOR THIS SETUP)
Cam Gears: AEM
Headgasket: Cometic
Headbolts: ARP
Rodbolts: ARP
Pistons: P30s or ITRs (undetermined as of yet)
Rods: Stock GSR (or these)
Rings: Stock GSR
Crank: Stock GSR
Flywheel: Stock GSR...may go with lightened.
Oilpan: Moroso road racing pan
ECU: Chipped P28 w/ redline at 9500rpm and VTEC switchover at 4800rpm
Head work: not sure if i will port and polish the head, this will drive costs up even further than i have it estimated already

Things that I will be replacing w/ OEM parts:
- main bearings
- rod bearings
- all top end gaskets (spark plug seals, cam seals, intake/exhaust gasket, vtec solenoid gasket, distributor o-ring, etc)
- all bottom end gaskets (front/rear main seals, oil pan, oil drain plug, etc)
- water pump
- oil pump (may go with this)
- timing belt
- thrust bearings

All of the above is roughly $2500 in parts alone. the port and polish will add a significant more... plus, the machine work on everything will most likely add $500-$800 to it.

Goal: not a drag racing engine... hence the low VTEC switchover. do hot-lapping, time trials, and autocrossing.

So, is it possible to see that kind of output with the above parts?

 

P30 pistons + portflow head job + stage2s = 200whp goal

you should be good with that combo, all the bolts you listed wont give u power but help you keep it

 

Yes that is very possible. Some JDM ITR Pistons, 2 layer hg. You almost have the same setup that i have.

Also what does your lma's look like? Are they taperd to more of a point, or flat topped? I can post pics if you are confused. Honda was weird with the replacement of the lma's. Some earlier models had the big lma's where later models all had the larger pad lma's..I turned out to be lucky w/ a 95 gsr head i got the large pad lma's.

You should look at my thread and you can ask questions there too, GSR Build - https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1262236

 

Also make sure to have your rods resized with the installation of the arp rod bolts..

 

what header are you going to be using

 

If you have the smaller tapered lma you need to uprade..

JUST FYI, the itr lma's are the same as the late model such as 99 lma's just different part number..Does it apply to ALL Gsr's? Probably not.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by siR cr-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what header are you going to be using</TD></TR></TABLE>
i'll be shopping for a 4-1 DC header.

right now, i got a dented up 4-2-1 header.

Current mods, which will transfer over are:
Skunk2 manifold
B&M FPR
DC 4-2-1
cheapo intake tube
cheapo muffler
test pipe
AEM cam gears
chipped ecu

got 158whp/122tq at 2200' altitude with that setup and basic tuning.


and the engine was pulled directly from a '94 gsr. so, i suspect i have the smaller "pad". I've been reading up on the LMA discussion, but couldn't find anything that suggested that it was required or strongly recommended to replace GSR LMAs for prelude/itr LMAs w/ Skunk2 S2s

 

well you should really replace them because the lift of the skunk2 stage 2's. The tit on the rocker arm, slides off the lma pad and causes a valvetrain bind, and then you can kiss your motor goodbye

 

200whp maybe 225whp hell no
but all that and no hondata??? come on that one of the most important things

 

blah, i rock first gen b16 lmas in mine, cams have way more lift and duration then those...... I don't believe in LMA's being the reason for cam/valvetrain destruction

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by towsondragcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">blah, i rock first gen b16 lmas in mine, cams have way more lift and duration then those...... I don't believe in LMA's being the reason for cam/valvetrain destruction </TD></TR></TABLE>

well thats good for you..it is a cause of it and its been proven. were your cams measured at 1mm or .050"? That could make a difference too? If he wants to go the safe route it would be the best thing he could do..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by On Endyn BBS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
There are two main differences between the early LMA's and the ITR (and late B16) units. The early units have less plunger travel, causing the center rocker to bottom-out binding the cams, and if you examine them, you'll also see that they have a much smaller pad for the tit on the rocker to ride on.

Since rocker arms do exactly that, the tit on the bottom travels in an arc with camshaft lift, starting on one edge of the LMA traversing across the pad to the other side. If you increase valve lift enough, the tit will actually ride right off the edge of the LMA, binding the valvetrain.

I'm not sure what the "perfect" solution to the problem is. Honda "fixed" the situation by making the newer LMA with increased travel and the larger pad for their engines using more than 0.425" (10.8 mm) lift. Since manufacturers don't like to spend money, you have to assume that they felt the change was absolutely necessary....

</TD></TR></TABLE>

MD From Ti-
it's not how long they last. it's whether they can cushion the load from a higher lift with an aftermarket big cam (more than 11.5 mm) on that nipple at the top. if it's too small you can get a rocker binding on it. and that can happen at any time if you put brand spanking new b16a LMA's on with a huge lift cam.

Also Rocket has done testing on these, why dont you guys contact him!

 

posted by MD OnTI - some people have apparently looked at their rocker at 12.4mm lift and how it sat on the tapered b16a LMA and reported that it still sat on the nipple no problem.


so the alternative explanation is that the rocker loads the smaller nipple and it can't take the load and collapses and binds the rocker at that position.

To be honest with you I haven't really paid attention to this line of presentations because I already have the older GSR LMA's and didn't worry about it or follow it closely. But if I had the b16a style LMA, I would replace them. Honda upgraded their valvetrain. They didn't have to create a new LMA with a bigger nipple and could have used the current inventory with the b16a...but they didn't.

I have to say though that there's a lot of problems using the bigger Toda cams (Spec B,C,D) for example which are made for the b16a/b18c5 rocker arm and shallower port approach and higher seat position and slapping it in a b18c1 tall approach intake port and lower seat position on valvespring installed height and rocker travel. I don't know how much that played into the b18c1 problems with those cams. the valvetrain dynamics could change enough to have the b18c1 rocker travel past the nipple width whereas you wouldn't see that on say a b16a/b18c5 rocker arm layout. I don't know if it's binding load or falling off the nipple as the cause there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Flywheel: Stock GSR...may go with lightened.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you will have no choice but to lighten the oem one, or, purchase a lighter flywheel. as for your vtec crossover and rev-limiter, your set up and tuning will determine that. not you. anyway, i'd expect 185-190whp. g/l with the project.

 

lmas........ i've heard that some higher milage b motors make a werd ticking noise... is that a comun thing?

 

a lot of low HP guestimates.

you guys don't feel there's a 60-70hp (45-55whp) gain to be had by lightening the entire valvetrain, lightening up the pistons and rebuilding the engine with new seals?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a lot of low HP guestimates.

you guys don't feel there's a 60-70hp (45-55whp) gain to be had by lightening the entire valvetrain, lightening up the pistons and rebuilding the engine with new seals? </TD></TR></TABLE>


What? you are crazy...

 

id recommend using LS crank and rods. And look into the ITR pistons. The p30 are good enought. I had a similar setup with b18c1 ls crank and rods with ctr pistons etc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a lot of low HP guestimates.

you guys don't feel there's a 60-70hp (45-55whp) gain to be had by lightening the entire valvetrain, lightening up the pistons and rebuilding the engine with new seals? </TD></TR></TABLE>

God no, fresh ring job might net you 10 hp at best unless the motor was hammerd and there is not another 50 spare HP laying around in friction/weight inside any Honda motor. As to the DC 4-1 and "cheapo intake"...that is going to choke you out of a ton of potential with your headwork and cams. Especially untuned which I didn't see in the budget, don't be surprised if you don't see 200. You have the goods, with tuning and good bolt ons you will easily break 200....don't skimp on the finer details now that you have gotten this far.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by riceball777 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">200whp maybe 225whp hell no
but all that and no hondata??? come on that one of the most important things </TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly just a chipped P28?, which is basically just some advanced timing and fuel added.

 

he's forgetting that in all motor it takes ALOT of money and a GREAT part selection to hit anything above 220+ whp

HEADWORK is needed/ not always, it's usually the last thing somebody does to their motor after the basic I/H/E. then breaking the motor down for pistons/rods.

another big power adder is the header, come on man I look at your list, I see a good top end even if it's not Port n polished, but a good header such as a SMSP will net you the power that you want. Trust me a Header helps ALOT

If you are not going to port n polish the head, than at least a Good valve job.

after all this homie, i suggest Tuning, cuz obviously you see all these foo's saying: NO TUNE NO LIFE

and not just with vafc. if you have uberdata do it, it's free on some sites, if not crome, if not Hondata(which is not free, but hondata is now offering free stuff that didn't come with it before).

Find out who is a Great tuner near you and ask them what can they work w/.

Good Luck on your quest

All the guys aim for that Magical 200 whp number, which is hard to obtain cuz it costs a lot of money/time/effort to build a beast of this caliber.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dragonz04 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">he's forgetting that in all motor it takes ALOT of money and a GREAT part selection to hit anything above 220+ whp
</TD></TR></TABLE>
good advice, thanks.

my steps for this is:
1. build the engine.
2. dyno the engine
3. tune the engine
4. have a lot of flippin fun with it.

this part of the stage, I'm simply trying to see if the PART selection is ideal. the header is something i'm overlooking (i was looking for a 4-1 simply cause my current header is dented).

what about the intake side of things? throttle body?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Driven &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
.

my steps for this is:
1. build the engine.
2. dyno the engine
3. tune the engine
4. have a lot of flippin fun with it.

this part of the stage, I'm simply trying to see if the PART selection is ideal. the header is something i'm overlooking (i was looking for a 4-1 simply cause my current header is dented).

what about the intake side of things? throttle body? </TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.maxbore.com will take care of your throttle body, low RPM usage will see a better throttle response from what I understand from a password (J's style) short ram, this may serve you better in auto cross. I will be using one on the new build. An AEM cold air will make more total power though.

put steps 2 and 3 together, break it in and get your dyno numbers when the motor is brand new on the dyno where the correct a/f can be set to have aproper break in and max power.

 

that is true, step 2 and 3 does go together, I'll also be breaking it on the dyno

maxbore is great for the tb.

what intake manifold are you going to run? the blox?

i'd send a type r throttle body and send it out to max bore to bore it out + he'll clean it up pretty good.

 

You meeting your goal will be HIGHLY dependent on your headwork. Also, you will want to go with a better header than the DC. One of the custom ones from RMF, SMSP, etc. would be ideal. You don't list what intake manifold you will be using(unless I missed it).