a lot of people rave about big brake kits, and their new performance pad, which is fine and great, but what I do not understand is how these products stop you faster than OEM pads, when both are at their optimal performance (ie. not too hot and not too cold)...we're not counting fade (I am talking strictly optimal performance) or any of tha goodness, we're talking about braking power, and braking size (bigger brake kits)

the reason I really don't understand it is because both pads are exerting force, and I can respect that the force they are exerting on the rotor does differ between pad, but both are limited to the tire's traction...a pad that exerts more force will have the ability to lock up the tire much easier, and at a higher speed...but how when threashold braking/abs breaking, would that pad stop the car any faster? I don't get it

yet a lot of brak kits make these statements...I need an explenation because this is driving me crazy

 

For one, big brake kits aren't necessarily for shorter stopping distances---they are bigger (rotors) to help heat dissipation. As for the pad question, I think most racers buy the pad that suits their driving profile. Different pads offer different "bite" characteristics, which can drastically affect how the car stops, and how soon. You are right about the absolute limit of braking coming down to the tires, however, a vehicle prepped for a nice dry track might be running slicks, and I wonder if your stock brakes could lock up those slicks at 100+mph....

 

Braking distance is purely a function of brake balance. Getting to do your front & rear tires to do the maximum amount of work possible. Big brake kits really do have the potential to upset your brake balance, and increase your stopping distances...

You sound like you really want to understand how braking systems work. I suggest you spend a few hours reading over the FAQ & Technical section at StopTech.com. They have answers to ALL your braking questions, and they really know their ****. I learned everything I know about brakes from them...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94eg! &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You sound like you really want to understand how braking systems work. I suggest you spend a few hours reading over the FAQ & Technical section at StopTech.com. They have answers to ALL your braking questions, and they really know their ****. I learned everything I know about brakes from them... </TD></TR></TABLE>

...and there are more articles coming. No ETA though

 

once you lock up a tire you cannot possibly do more work, you've grabbed that surface hard enough to stop it from turning, so you cannot potentailly upset it more? spin it backwards? ha

the point is if you can get it hard enough to lock it up, you've put as much force as you possibly can, period. what I am trying to understand is why most aftermarket brake pads claim they can stop you faster, when in reality they cannot apply more force than you are already doing so with your stock brakes

here, let me point you to
http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq14.html
which states that bigger componants "will provide more clamping pressure on that axle"...which again I am not disagreeing that statement, but if you can already provide the amount of force needed to stop that rotor from spinning, how would you benefit from anymore?

and I do understand heat, hence why I am saying take that OUT of the equation, I am saying they are both running in their ideal temp

it appears my answer is no, the more I think about it, and the more I research the more I eralize that no, the opint of an aftermarket pad and a big brake system is operational temperature and heat disspiation, and does nothing for improving distance (again both being @ ideal temps)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by site &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> this, but when you look at the braking system from a design standpoint, making them 'bigger' doesn't fundamentally do anything for stopping distance. It's all about the heat. So, you upgraded the front brakes because of thermal concerns but as a hidden surprise got a shift in brake bias. </TD></TR></TABLE>
http://www.stoptech.com/whitep...1.htm

answers my question

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Leb_CRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">once you lock up a tire you cannot possibly do more work, you've grabbed that surface hard enough to stop it from turning, so you cannot potentailly upset it more? spin it backwards? ha

the point is if you can get it hard enough to lock it up, you've put as much force as you possibly can, period. what I am trying to understand is why most aftermarket brake pads claim they can stop you faster, when in reality they cannot apply more force than you are already doing so with your stock brakes
</TD></TR></TABLE>

-Cause you have 4 tires...if you lock up one set of tires before the other you're not maximizing the braking potential of all 4 tires. In a theoretical sense.

-A stock pad in a stock system on a stock civic will most likely not produce enough torque at high speed to lock up or come close to locking up the tires. At least that's what I experienced when I had an EK.

-Most performance pads have a higher coefficient of friction for a given pressure/temperature

-there is no such thing as optimal conditions, it's all about compromises


Modified by El Pollo Diablo at 7:13 PM 5/27/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Leb_CRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">once you lock up a tire you cannot possibly do more work, you've grabbed that surface hard enough to stop it from turning, so you cannot potentailly upset it more? spin it backwards? ha

the point is if you can get it hard enough to lock it up, you've put as much force as you possibly can, period. what I am trying to understand is why most aftermarket brake pads claim they can stop you faster, when in reality they cannot apply more force than you are already doing so with your stock brakes
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is possible to decrease your stopping distances with a big brake kit. As explained in the "brake bias" article on StopTech.com, the factory braking system is designed to provide "stable" braking. Stable braking occours when your front tires lock up before the rears (caused by a slightly forward biased brake system). This action keeps your vehicle pointed in the forward direction. It is possible to sacrifice some stability by shifting the brake bias rearward. This allows the rear tires to fullfill more of their braking potential. As we all know, the more work the tires are made to do, the less time it takes to do it.

This is the reason that StopTech advertises their brake kit as a "Balanced" brake system. It's designed to shift your brake balance slightly rearward (taking up the slack in the factory brake system) allowing the rear tires to do more work than normal. As we know, larger front rotors will cause a shift in brake bias more towards the front. But if you combine those larger rotors with smaller than stock caliper pistons, the balance can actually be shifted back.

Pros of a properly designed big brake kit:
-larger heat capacity from big rotors prevents fade
-Proper brake balancing for decreased stoping distances
-Stiffer caliper body to increase pedal firmness
-Diffirential piston boars to minimize pad taper
-larger pads for longer service life
-Better than stock pads with a higher heat range prevents fade
-Floating rotor prevents pad taper, loss of pad contact area & prevents pad knockback
-Stainless lines increase pedal firmness
-Slots for cleaning pad surface or crossdrills for bling apeal

Cons of any big brake kit:
-larger rotor is harder to accelerate (loss of wheel HP)
-It costs a lot
-Need some damn big wheels

Definently read the brake balance article. It was my favorite (I felt like I was shown "the light")...

 

Tight, thanks guys, much appreciated!