Well, after months of waiting, i was finally able to make it up to Shawn Church this last monday..

I was kind of disapointed that hondata wasnt able to make anymore power over the last time i was tuned by Aries with the vafc.
Old dyno w/Vafc = 164.4 , 107tq

Anyways, heres the setup and dyno.

p&p head
3 angle valve job
AEBS intake manifold
AEM cia
AEM fuel rail
4-1 header
HKS cat back
test pipe
AEM cam gears/pully
Gude stage 2 cams
B&M FPR
62mm TB
Hondata s200



169.1whp, 120.4

With my AEM CAI we made 164.8 and 115tq, the graph above is with a 3" intake and no filter.

If you look at the sheet, you can see around 8k my power INSTANTLY drops.. We spent alot of time trying to figure out what was wrong and couldnt come to any conclusions.. We are kind of assuming its the cams. (Gude stage 2)

Shawn figured if we could keep it from CLIFFING over we could see another 10-13whp..

Any ideas? Comments?

 

dump the Hondata and the Gude cams. I know its recommended alot here on H-T but on sub 200 HP cars i've seen it only make minimal to sometimes no gain in power. As far a Gude, i've yet to see anything good come out of them and I doubt the R&D on those cams was extensive. I would move into something that you we KNOW makes power with your kind of compression like BC3+'s for example. If your compression was a bit higher I would say RM M22X's. My .02. BTW, The numbers arent terrible. Thats decent for a B16 just not one thats built. Good luck to you!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thevanitygroup &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dump the Hondata </TD></TR></TABLE>
Not the best advice I have seen on Honda-Tech. The cams may be part of the problem-do you have the specs?

 

No i dont have the specs on the cams, ill try to look them up.
I had bought the car with the cams in it

My orginal plan was to go with the BC3+ at first, Because from last time with Aries we figured the cams were holding me back

But i had to get tuned because i ended up selling my vafc and ecu and have been driving around with no power at all..

Im probably going to keep this setup tho and save my pennies and join the darkside

 

From the Gude website it showed...

Intake LIFT - 0.434 DURATION - 250
Exhaust LIFT - 0.405 DURATION - 258

http://www.gude.com/catalog/cat_civcrx.htm#Cams

????


Modified by athoughts at 7:09 PM 5/10/2005

 

B19COUPE: Why is that not the best advice?

Per the suggestion of people on H-T you have kids with barely built motors scraping the bottom of the piggy bank to buy Hondata and for what? To gain nothing? To literally just end up paying the tuner more money for nothing at all. Im not bashing Hondata, im saying for semi built b16's like the one above, its basically useless. For people in the 200+ range with barely pump gas C/R's, ITB's, and almost unidleable cams, Hondata can save your life.

Point is, spend that extra money on internals while tuning on a VAFC. When you are at the point where Hondata will ACTUALLY BENEFIT YOU, sell your VAFC, and invest in a Hondata setup, otherwise your not only pissing in the wind but pissing your money away.

 

from how that dyno chart is. Are u sure he didnt bs you and "said" it had cams or what not?? Take them out and check them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thevanitygroup &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">B19COUPE: Why is that not the best advice?

Per the suggestion of people on H-T you have kids with barely built motors scraping the bottom of the piggy bank to buy Hondata and for what? To gain nothing? To literally just end up paying the tuner more money for nothing at all. Im not bashing Hondata, im saying for semi built b16's like the one above, its basically useless. For people in the 200+ range with barely pump gas C/R's, ITB's, and almost unidleable cams, Hondata can save your life.

Point is, spend that extra money on internals while tuning on a VAFC. When you are at the point where Hondata will ACTUALLY BENEFIT YOU, sell your VAFC, and invest in a Hondata setup, otherwise your not only pissing in the wind but pissing your money away.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Since he already has the hondata, i wouldnt tell him to dump it, its is better that a piggyback system. Im not nocking the vafc, i use one, but i'd rather have a hondata system. Its hard to tune little crap on a vafc like idle and partial throttle.

 

^ Agreed, it is a pain. The reason I was telling him to dump it is because it looks like he's going to need to be investing in some cams soon. If he was to pawn off the Hondata to some H-T'er for a few hundred and then do that same with the cams, he'll have enough to buy some decent cams and a used VAFC.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by athoughts &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From the Gude website it showed...

Intake LIFT - 0.434 DURATION - 250
Exhaust LIFT - 0.405 DURATION - 258
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Intake lift=11.0236mm.
Exhaust lift=10.287mm.

ITR cams have more lift at 11.5mm and 10.5mm.
The advertised duration is probably not at 1mm, and my guess is that those cams also have less duration than ITR cams. Ditch them.

As to Hondata, it is not the best engine management system out there, but it is damn good. If a tuner can not fatten up the powerband wth Hondata (mild or wild build) as opposed to a stock ECU or chipped ECU, then he needs some training
I was at the dyno on Thursday, and we picked up quite a bit of power with Hondata. Not only can you fine tune the A/F , but ignition timing maps as well. We found more than a few HP with timing map adjustments alone.
Dumping something that works just makes no sense.

 

What up AJ. At least you got your car running now!

 

those are regrinds most likely...

 

yeah over the summer here, i defenently have to start savin my pennies and figure out what i want to do with my car

 

id sell that POS car

shawn church

 

!

 

damn that is weak ill burn you wtihh pos untuned prelude sike at least you got it runnin and gain a little bit yeah may be you dont have cams or they just suck lol but yeah let me know i might get a hondata soon too just saving my pennies

 

Im pretty sure those cams suck,

how much power increase should i see throwin in some decent cams??

Enouph power for it to be worth the $$$$

 

Ok your power didn't jump that much but your tq. went from 107 to 120. IMO that is pretty damn good for a B16. Now if you get some good cams I would think you would see an even bigger rise in your hp numbers. I would keep the hondata, get nnew cams ( BCIII, S2S2, JUN 3's) and have it retuned. It looks like you have a nicely built head but are lacking in the cam department.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gilbert_619 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">id sell that POS car

shawn church </TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn! That's Fucked up!

Dont worry AJ, I will help find some new cams!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by srob7001 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok your power didn't jump that much but your tq. went from 107 to 120. IMO that is pretty damn good for a B16. Now if you get some good cams I would think you would see an even bigger rise in your hp numbers. I would keep the hondata, get nnew cams ( BCIII, S2S2, JUN 3's) and have it retuned. It looks like you have a nicely built head but are lacking in the cam department.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Very true, on a B16 you need torque gains, so +10wtq is pretty good!

 

I agree....I'll take +10w tq on a b16 or 20hp anyday

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Damn! That's Fucked up!
Dont worry AJ, I will help find some new cams!</TD></TR></TABLE>


haha Rick that was Gilbert, his *** was on HT this morning at school..

but yeah, keep an eye out for a deal!
thanks

 

Could these cams be the reason my power drops instantly at 8k then?

 

i did the whole b16 comparison with TB/mani combos. You can use other cams, but that's not to blame. cams don't suck or are the best IMO.

Going from a 3" intake to ITR 62mm TB into a bored 65mm AEBS manifold killed the curve, IMO.

If you wanted to make the most power and tq up to 8k, i would have just stayed with a stock B16 TB and manifold. Although a ported b16 manifold can help across the powerband.

 

I disagree. Those cams are definatly junk. I say stick with the IM and TB because any good all motor cam will apprieciate the extra air. Besides from 62 to 65 isnt a world of a difference. I beleave it might of effected your curve but it definatly didnt "KILL" anything as stated above.

 

would it be better to get the itr TB bored to 64mm?

and a side note, i have a b16 mani for sale, look down.