"Heel-and-toe" on bikes?
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,736
Likes: 1
From: Funfax
"Heel-and-toe" on bikes?
I am pretty proficient with this technique in a car, but how do you do it on a bike?
The only way I can see to brake and rev-match at the same time is to do it with the rear brake, but it seems pretty much impossible to do with the front. Perhaps this is why slipper clutches on bikes are useful?
The only way I can see to brake and rev-match at the same time is to do it with the rear brake, but it seems pretty much impossible to do with the front. Perhaps this is why slipper clutches on bikes are useful?
Honda-Tech Gold Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,581
Likes: 1
From: Orange County, Ca, USA
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (Ross R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am pretty proficient with this technique in a car, but how do you do it on a bike?
The only way I can see to brake and rev-match at the same time is to do it with the rear brake, but it seems pretty much impossible to do with the front. Perhaps this is why slipper clutches on bikes are useful?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You gotta get used to it. 1st practice just downshifting while matching revs before you need to brake. After you get that being 2nd nature.. you use your palm to rev while grabbing your brake with your fingers. It's kinda tough at 1st but you'll get used to it. Adjust your brake lever if you have to.
EDIT: I use my pointer and middle fingers to brake while gripping and reving the throttle with my ring and pinky fingers and my palm.
The only way I can see to brake and rev-match at the same time is to do it with the rear brake, but it seems pretty much impossible to do with the front. Perhaps this is why slipper clutches on bikes are useful?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You gotta get used to it. 1st practice just downshifting while matching revs before you need to brake. After you get that being 2nd nature.. you use your palm to rev while grabbing your brake with your fingers. It's kinda tough at 1st but you'll get used to it. Adjust your brake lever if you have to.
EDIT: I use my pointer and middle fingers to brake while gripping and reving the throttle with my ring and pinky fingers and my palm.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (ScareyH22A)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScareyH22A »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You gotta get used to it. 1st practice just downshifting while matching revs before you need to brake. After you get that being 2nd nature.. you use your palm to rev while grabbing your brake with your fingers. It's kinda tough at 1st but you'll get used to it. Adjust your brake lever if you have to.
EDIT: I use my pointer and middle fingers to brake while gripping and reving the throttle with my ring and pinky fingers and my palm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow that sounds like it would take time to master, but very beneficial as well. i bet a lot of you experienced riders got this technique down. how long did it take you to get used to it?
You gotta get used to it. 1st practice just downshifting while matching revs before you need to brake. After you get that being 2nd nature.. you use your palm to rev while grabbing your brake with your fingers. It's kinda tough at 1st but you'll get used to it. Adjust your brake lever if you have to.
EDIT: I use my pointer and middle fingers to brake while gripping and reving the throttle with my ring and pinky fingers and my palm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow that sounds like it would take time to master, but very beneficial as well. i bet a lot of you experienced riders got this technique down. how long did it take you to get used to it?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,673
Likes: 0
From: IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (ScareyH22A)
point of this? bikes are fast enough why rev match? seems like a waste of time. and to risky(coming up on one very fast without knowing)
Honda-Tech Gold Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,581
Likes: 1
From: Orange County, Ca, USA
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (tylercrx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tylercrx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow that sounds like it would take time to master, but very beneficial as well. i bet a lot of you experienced riders got this technique down. how long did it take you to get used to it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It took some time.. don't remember how long. But even now, I'm always trying to perform it a bit smoother and a bit faster down gears.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bottle fed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">point of this? bikes are fast enough why rev match? seems like a waste of time. and to risky(coming up on one very fast without knowing)</TD></TR></TABLE>
Do I really need to explain?
It took some time.. don't remember how long. But even now, I'm always trying to perform it a bit smoother and a bit faster down gears.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bottle fed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">point of this? bikes are fast enough why rev match? seems like a waste of time. and to risky(coming up on one very fast without knowing)</TD></TR></TABLE>
Do I really need to explain?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,950
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (ScareyH22A)
You may want to explain it. Its basically about smoother, faster downshifts. When I want to rev match a downshift fast, I just roll on with a little bit of break and notch the shift lever down with maybe an inch pull of clutch. Its second habit once you do it for awhile.
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,736
Likes: 1
From: Funfax
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (bottle fed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bottle fed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">point of this? bikes are fast enough why rev match? seems like a waste of time. and to risky(coming up on one very fast without knowing)</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's really a track thing. No reason to do it on the street, but on the track it is very useful.
On the street, I can do it with a little rear brake. But if I was on the track, that wouldn't cut it.
It's really a track thing. No reason to do it on the street, but on the track it is very useful.
On the street, I can do it with a little rear brake. But if I was on the track, that wouldn't cut it.
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (Ross R)
I usually get to the speed I want to be at before I enter a turn....If I can recall correctly when I ride....I'm coming up on a turn fast.....apply the breaks to my desired comfort level for a few seconds....match-rev to the gear/rpm that i feel comfortable in taking the turn.....and accelerate through....but this is what I do at the canyons..so most the time im only going up or down one gear....Im mainly on 3rd and 4th....but i can imagine the track being different because of the straights...
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,736
Likes: 1
From: Funfax
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (JDMGSRCRX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMGSRCRX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I usually get to the speed I want to be at before I enter a turn....If I can recall correctly when I ride....I'm coming up on a turn fast.....apply the breaks to my desired comfort level for a few seconds....match-rev to the gear/rpm that i feel comfortable in taking the turn.....and accelerate through....but this is what I do at the canyons..so most the time im only going up or down one gear....Im mainly on 3rd and 4th....but i can imagine the track being different because of the straights...</TD></TR></TABLE>
What you described just now is rev-matching, which is what I'd hope all of us do on the street.
For anyone who isn't sure, heel/toe downshifting is a way to rev-match while braking, in order to minimize braking distances and achieve proper gear selection upon corner exit.
What you described just now is rev-matching, which is what I'd hope all of us do on the street.
For anyone who isn't sure, heel/toe downshifting is a way to rev-match while braking, in order to minimize braking distances and achieve proper gear selection upon corner exit.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
From: Waverly, NY, USA
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (RebornGSR)
This isn't just really a track thing and it isn't just to decrease your breaking time and length. What it is basically doing is decreasing the stress on your tires at that point. Lets take it step by step:
First of if you just downshit and let out the clutch you are taking traction and thus frictional force from your tire to have your motor pick up rpm and meet at the appropriate spot for the gear selected.
If you are braking at this time then that means your tires are taking a frictional force to stop your motorcycle or car and slow down the speed.
If you mash on the brakes too hard then the brakes will thus lock up your car or motorcycle's wheels and the force of the car due to the motion is greater than the friction between tire and surface can handle so it slides.
Now say you are coming to a stop on a turn, which isn't good on a motorcycle anyways, or if you are even stopping hard in a straight line. Some of the frictional force is being used to keep the tires from sliding out sideways while the rest of the force is being used by the brakes and then you go to have some of it used for the downshift? You are putting too much force on the tires and this can break them past the statical friction point and send you flying.
That is why if you are in a hard turn nearly at the limit of your car and you hit the brakes or let out the clutch too fast trying to speed up or even downshift and don't rev match your car will start a slide.
Also why do you downshift? The reason is because the engine helps your car slow down along with your brakes which leads me into this last piece.
Basically after all of this information you want to think. If you are under a hard braking point it is good to rev-match downshift while braking so your tire isn't under too much force and break loose. Under most cases it is not needed but why not keep in practice to when it is you don't screw up and lose control just because you didn't rev-match downshift?
Also anyways the MSF teaches you just to pull in the clutch and brake. Plus if I said anything wrong just flame me and correct it. I am pretty sure it will happen anyways.
First of if you just downshit and let out the clutch you are taking traction and thus frictional force from your tire to have your motor pick up rpm and meet at the appropriate spot for the gear selected.
If you are braking at this time then that means your tires are taking a frictional force to stop your motorcycle or car and slow down the speed.
If you mash on the brakes too hard then the brakes will thus lock up your car or motorcycle's wheels and the force of the car due to the motion is greater than the friction between tire and surface can handle so it slides.
Now say you are coming to a stop on a turn, which isn't good on a motorcycle anyways, or if you are even stopping hard in a straight line. Some of the frictional force is being used to keep the tires from sliding out sideways while the rest of the force is being used by the brakes and then you go to have some of it used for the downshift? You are putting too much force on the tires and this can break them past the statical friction point and send you flying.
That is why if you are in a hard turn nearly at the limit of your car and you hit the brakes or let out the clutch too fast trying to speed up or even downshift and don't rev match your car will start a slide.
Also why do you downshift? The reason is because the engine helps your car slow down along with your brakes which leads me into this last piece.
Basically after all of this information you want to think. If you are under a hard braking point it is good to rev-match downshift while braking so your tire isn't under too much force and break loose. Under most cases it is not needed but why not keep in practice to when it is you don't screw up and lose control just because you didn't rev-match downshift?
Also anyways the MSF teaches you just to pull in the clutch and brake. Plus if I said anything wrong just flame me and correct it. I am pretty sure it will happen anyways.
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,978
Likes: 0
From: cAshburn
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (Wicker Man)
It happens during braking but it's for when you get back on the power after braking. There are many other applications of rev matching while downshifting and/or braking but when Ross says heel/toe it makes me think of the track application for cars. In that instance, it's designed not to unsettle your car when you let out the clutch because your engine speed doesn't match your tranny speed.
FWIW I tried some very preliminary tests (without letting the clutch out) on my way to work this morning and found the two finger brake to be the easiest to brake and rev at the same time.
FWIW I tried some very preliminary tests (without letting the clutch out) on my way to work this morning and found the two finger brake to be the easiest to brake and rev at the same time.
Grumpy Old Man
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,092
Likes: 0
From: Westchester
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (Apocalypse)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Apocalypse »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">found the two finger brake to be the easiest to brake and rev at the same time.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't remember the last time I used more then two fingers on the brakes. It's a pain the the *** to blip the throttle with my dainese speed metal gloves though. I'm thinking about picking up some held galaxies for the track. I have $250 gloves and I think I need another $200 pair for track days
Revmatching your downshifts becomes very helpful while under hard braking. Without a slipper clutch it becomes very easy to lock up the rear on downshifts when your heavy on the brakes.
I can't remember the last time I used more then two fingers on the brakes. It's a pain the the *** to blip the throttle with my dainese speed metal gloves though. I'm thinking about picking up some held galaxies for the track. I have $250 gloves and I think I need another $200 pair for track days
Revmatching your downshifts becomes very helpful while under hard braking. Without a slipper clutch it becomes very easy to lock up the rear on downshifts when your heavy on the brakes.
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,978
Likes: 0
From: cAshburn
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (RebornGSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RebornGSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't remember the last time I used more then two fingers on the brakes. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The more comortable I get on my bike the more often I go for the two finger method. I don't like not covering the front brake in case of emergency but previously I didn't trust myself and/or the bike enough to cover with two fingers at all time. I imagine a best case scenario in which you've always got the brake covered with those two fingers and use the same to pull it.
The more comortable I get on my bike the more often I go for the two finger method. I don't like not covering the front brake in case of emergency but previously I didn't trust myself and/or the bike enough to cover with two fingers at all time. I imagine a best case scenario in which you've always got the brake covered with those two fingers and use the same to pull it.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,285
Likes: 0
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (bottle fed)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bottle fed »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">point of this? bikes are fast enough why rev match? seems like a waste of time. and to risky(coming up on one very fast without knowing)</TD></TR></TABLE>
so you do not slide the rear tire; much smoother downshifts.
i hold the throttle with my thumb and pointer finger while braking with my middle finger. i usually throw out the shocker with my other hand for the hell of it after every pull of the clutch lever. (total sarcasm there; nobody flip out....)
so you do not slide the rear tire; much smoother downshifts.
i hold the throttle with my thumb and pointer finger while braking with my middle finger. i usually throw out the shocker with my other hand for the hell of it after every pull of the clutch lever.
(total sarcasm there; nobody flip out....)
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
From: San Diego, CA
Re: "Heel-and-toe" on bikes? (usdmPC3)
Like scary said, use your index and middle finger to brake. It just takes practice, practice, practice. If you're bike has great brakes you can get away with 1 finger braking. If you think thats hard just wait until you start trail braking.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ZexyAccord
Honda Motorcycles
6
Sep 12, 2005 04:49 AM
