original stock bottom end = original bottom end that honda built the motor with.

new bottom end = anything on the bottom end (crank, rods, pistons) has been changed, even if it was OE parts.

 

Shatterd mine today at the track, hard to shut it off as soon as i saw the solid oil light. coasted and called my friend w/ a tow truck

CTR N1 crank pulley
I have 1,000 miles on this engine. I hope this gay crank pully didnt cause any damage to the rest of the bottomend.

 

I've been running a CTR N1 crank pulley for the last 2 1/2 years and racing on it on the 1/4mile and Auto-X. No problems what so ever with the oil pump, bearings or anything else. I also rev to 9,000rpm.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DEMNTD1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been running a CTR N1 crank pulley for the last 2 1/2 years and racing on it on the 1/4mile and Auto-X. No problems what so ever with the oil pump, bearings or anything else. I also rev to 9,000rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Inlinepro has shatterd several pumps also useing this pulley. Its diffent when your maken 300+whp i'm guessing. I used to use it for a year and a half on my last motor with 250whp. This pump only lastest 1000 miles and it was a new honda pump,...

 

I had 10k on my first stock pump, then it shattered. I replaced it and had about 1k on my new stock pump and shattered the gear last night at the track. I'm assuming it's from the unorthodox crank pulley, so i'm going with a stock pulley this time and an aftermarket pump gear (365 whp)

 

i cease to understand how an undampened crank pulley like an N1 CTR can have an affect on the oil pump when the pump is in no way connected directly (bolted) to the rotational mass of the motor like the crank pulley is. if you're talkin a 300hp turbo motor you are putting a lot more stress on the pump do to the pump now having to feed a turbo as well. this makes more sense to me than blaming it on a crank pulley.

 

its kinda funny that everyone on this thread who is blaming the N1CTR pulley on the oil pump failure just happens to have a turbo setup.

 

hmm....thats funny too. dementd1 is the only post here that praises the N1CTR crank pulley. he's also the only one with a NA setup that commented. lets think about this for a minute..............kinda wierd huh?

you're not alone dementd1, i like my N1 pulley and my motor is NA too

 

I rev my stock b16 bottom end to 9500 daily for 10k miles, and no problems yet. (knocks on wood! )

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondaxsimike &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its kinda funny that everyone on this thread who is blaming the N1CTR pulley on the oil pump failure just happens to have a turbo setup. </TD></TR></TABLE>


I agree and even at that, is it the pulley or somthing else. Everyone is so quick to blame the pulley and not the engine build.

 

the snout of the crank goes through the oil pump, so the crank turns the gear inside.

the crank is not simply a rotating, horizontal, metal rod. it has the pin journals from which the rods and pistons swing, and counterweights. so, although the bulkhead of the block holds it in 5 places, it still stretches, bends, and flexes like a jumprope during operation, and twists from the shock of the combustion only forcing down one piston, rod, and pin journal at a time, which makes it accelerate one part of the crank faster than the rest, which has to catch up. it will, but when it does, the 'faster' part will elastically 'snap' back.

now, add to this effect the force of the next cyl firing, etc., and you'll see not so much a spinning, rigid, rod, but something which under a strobe looks more like a slinky (to a lesser degree). a greater stroke (higher absolute piston speed), shorter r/s ratio (higher piston acceleration), higher power output (more force on each piston on the powerstroke), higher rpm, and greater (piston and rod) mass swinging from the pin journals all magnify this effect.

if you frequently run the engine in a narrow, relatively high rpm band for more extended periods (e.g. 5K rpm @ 80mph, a speed at which wind resistance/drag places considerably higher loads on the engine), you amplify the crank flex/twist.

to see how it works, take a slinky and have someone hold it still at one end of a room while you hold it at the other. slowly wave it up and down once, and observe the 'ripple'. now rhythmically repeat, and watch the waves sync up and grow. now add a rotational motion, since the crank doesn't only move vertically; it spins. what you feel in your hand is like what the oil pump gear 'feels'; to keep hold of the slinky, you have to provide some inertia through your arm, or it will want to flex and wobble right out of your hand.

likewise, the oil pump gear flexes and wobbles laterally and longitudinally, and the housing provides the resistance, essentially dampening the vibration. since the vibes are going to encounter resistance somewhere, would you prefer to try to dampen them with friction between a small gear forged from powdered metal and a thin cast Aluminum housing (the oil pump), or would you rather use something more elastic like a rubber-band (akin the damper on the stock or ATI crank pulleys) or viscous fluid (akin to that in the Fluidampr)?

Honda didn't design different dampers/pulleys for the itr and gsr for nothing. i suppose that for using a relatively stock engine for N1 racing, the CTR N1 pulley works well. (go figure.) i'll also assume that the engines run in N1 are torn down, inspected, and rebuilt more frequently that most of us prefer on our daily-driven engines, which often make considerably more power, and run at higher loads in steady states at longer intervals. curiously enough, the stock pullies aren't press-to-fit, as is the Fluidampr (my personal choice), which would seem to render them less effective (having play/'rattling', but still more effective than a pulley using no damper at all).

this said, i don't understand why anyone with a daily driver would want to risk even a stock engine to run the N1 piece. if you blow your race-enigne, you'll likely lose the race, but if you blow your DD, you have to drive another car or find a ride, and rebuild or replace your busted one. if you're concerned with shedding rotating mass, the flywheel is a better place, since it has more mass farther from the crank centerline, which is harder to accelerate. you can also run a ($$) twin or triple disk clutch, and ultralight internals. the Fluidampr slightly underdrives the alternator (so as not to fry out the brushes more quickly at higher rpm), and the 'street' Honda B version has a removable PS pulley.

not so OT, some of the newer Honda B oil pumps are defective right out of the box; the machining is such that the pressure-relief spring will get stuck. it might happen immediately, or it might take a while. if you're (re)building, it's prolly worth opening the pump for inspection prior to installation.


Modified by slofu at 12:05 PM 9/11/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by volcom40street &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


I agree and even at that, is it the pulley or somthing else. Everyone is so quick to blame the pulley and not the engine build.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lets see, my car was running great for 6 months, I installed a CTR crank pulley, and shattered the oil pump gear 80 miles later? It was definately because of the pulley my motor is now scrap metal.

 

How about loose flywheel, pressure plate or main pulley bolt(s)?

 

Just a note.. On my 1st gen B16 there was no rubber at all inside the stock crank pulley when I changed over to the N1 pulley earlier this summer.

Umm.. The motor has something like 140,000ish kms on it and I drive it 140km every day all summer long. Regularly (at least daily) hitting 8,000rpm and its given me no problems so far.

I don't even see how it's different than the stock pulley with no rubber?!!?

 

I broke an oil pump on a type-r motor on nitrous with a UR pulley but I was reving to 9200rpm.

When you rev a motor at high rpm's it causes the oil to cavitate in the pump which vibrates and brakes the pump.

I find if your going to rev the motors past 8500rpm then just put a 1/2 quart over filled of oil in it. It helps with cavitation and should'nt brake the pump.

 

well, cavitation will ruin a few things, and the best damper isn't going to help much if you've got a wonky flywheel. as others stated, the oil-feed to a turbo is yet another pressure-drop in the system, + turbos are known to heat and eat some oil (redcivicstandard has an NA b18c, though), and stock oil sprayers also sap oil from the main galley.

Luke, if it's regarding your engine, did you check to see if your oil scraper's teflon didn't sheer off and restrict flow at the pickup screen?

 

I started this thread in the way back. Before I had the crank scraper installed. I have not had a problem with my oil pump. I was trying to decide if I was going to keep the 6 oz DH racing crank pulley.

I have been running the DH pully for about 12,000 miles now, with no problems yet.

 

So has anyone on here shattered an oil punp gear while running just all-motor with no power adders?

I personally know at least 2 people that had them go on boosted motors, one was on a built motor and one was on a stock oem bottom end.

 

it's happened- more often than you'd like to think, though i can't remember the last time that i heard of someone blowing a pump on a 100% stock engine (lsvtec not included), or one with just cams and bolt-ons, like Luke's.

Luke, i asked since i'd imagine that the scraper would help keep more necessary oil in the pan, as well as reducing windage. when you pulled the block to install it, did you check your bearings? also, was the DH pulley on before you installed the scraper? personally, i'd not risk it when the stocker works well and there are alternatives (not cheap, but safer). i've seen some places offer shaved and rebalanced stock pulleys that retain the damper. it might be worthwhile investigating, and safer trying.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slofu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Luke, i asked since i'd imagine that the scraper would help keep more necessary oil in the pan, as well as reducing windage. when you pulled the block to install it, did you check your bearings? also, was the DH pulley on before you installed the scraper? personally, i'd not risk it when the stocker works well and there are alternatives (not cheap, but safer). i've seen some places offer shaved and rebalanced stock pulleys that retain the damper. it might be worthwhile investigating, and safer trying. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I had the DH pulley on for a whole summer before I installed the crank scraper. The bearings were near perfect when I installed the crank scraper. Still running the DH pulley.

 

Stock pulley, fully built bottom end. But, I was revving the **** out of an LS bottom end, and I think they rebuilt it with a stock oil pump, but told me a VTEC oil pump was used.

This was like 3 years ago, its water under the bridge now.

 

when "we-todd" decided to work I'll post up pics of my LS oil pumps. shatterd 2 pumps in 2 weeks. Switched to a new B20z oil pump + B20 crank pully and never had another problem.

 

well guys from MUCH experience I've come to the conclusion that undampened pullys(crank) are junk. I wish you guys could understand the engine dynamics of 4cyl. engines and how their firing order and displacment play a huge roll in harmonics, which in turn if not controlled by a system such as a dampener then it can destroy an engine or a simple ring and gear such as a oil pump. If your looking for a performance pully then do it right and check out an ATI or Fluidampner. Don't for get vibration travels.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cptengineer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I wish you guys could understand the engine dynamics of 4cyl. engines and how their firing order and displacment play a huge roll in harmonics</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because we're all so stupid here we couldnt possibly comprehend primary and secondary vibrations.

11,800 miles on my undampened CTR pulley and still going strong. I plan on building a 2.1l bottom end for it sometime soon, so when she comes apart, ill post pics of the bearing surfaces and i swear it better be a sticky.

 

Just for threads like this, I keep 5 papers on crank torsional vibration up. You can find them at: http://www.mtggraphics.com/big...a.htm They are in the middle... some background for guys that haven't seen it yet.